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#32019 - 12/13/03 06:10 AM No wonder Article 80 is not widely adopted.
iwire Offline
Moderator
Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4391
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
In another thread I asked why not lobby for more adoption of article 80.

After reading article 80, specifically 80.13 I am sorry I said that.

I found most of article 80 to be shocking in how much power it gives an AHJ.

I will post a few sections and ask for others thoughts on this.

Quote:
80.13(4) Police, fire, and other enforcement agencies shall have authority to render necessary assistance in the enforcement of this Code when requested to do so by the authority having jurisdiction.


Quote:
80.13(5) The authority having jurisdiction shall be authorized to inspect, at all reasonable times, any building or premises for dangerous or hazardous conditions or equipment as set forth in this Code. The authority having jurisdiction shall be permitted to order any person(s) to remove or remedy such dangerous or hazardous condition or equipment. Any person(s) failing to comply with such order shall be in violation of this Code.


Quote:
80.13(7) To the full extent permitted by law, any authority having jurisdiction engaged in inspection work shall be authorized at all reasonable times to enter and examine any building, structure, or premises for the purpose of making electrical inspections. Before entering a premises, the authority having jurisdiction shall obtain the consent of the occupant thereof or obtain a court warrant authorizing entry for the purpose of inspection except in those instances where an emergency exists. As used in this section, emergency means circumstances that the authority having jurisdiction knows, or has reason to believe, exist and that reasonably can constitute immediate danger to persons or property.


I can see it now, the police want to enter a building so they call the AHJ and ask if there might be electrical hazards inside that need correcting.

Am I overly paranoid or do others think this goes a little far?
_________________________
Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
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#32020 - 12/13/03 06:32 AM Re: No wonder Article 80 is not widely adopted.
ElectricAL Offline
Member
Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 597
Loc: Minneapolis, MN USA
U.S. Constitution,
Amendment IV of the Bill of Rights:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Bob,

I agree that Article 80 seems a might overbroad.
_________________________
Al Hildenbrand
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#32021 - 12/13/03 07:32 AM Re: No wonder Article 80 is not widely adopted.
Tom Offline
Member
Registered: 01/01/01
Posts: 1044
Loc: Shinnston, WV USA
I sure could have used 80.13(4) a few years ago. When the power company started requiring inspection of all service entrances, some people had a real hard time with the concept of doing code compliant work. I was actually threatened a few times when I red tagged an installation. I would have been a lot more comfortable on the follow up if I could have had a county sheriff go back with me.

As for the rest, maybe a little paranoia is a healthy thing.
_________________________
Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example.
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#32022 - 12/13/03 07:52 AM Re: No wonder Article 80 is not widely adopted.
Joe Tedesco Offline
Member
Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 2749
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA
Bob:

That information was once in a NFPA recommended document It was refined to meet today's needs and added to the NEC.

If adopted, Article 80 will be relocated to Annex G.

I agree it is a tough document, but on the other hand, would help to rid the electrical inspection community of those with little or no experience, and "Political Hacks"

I will take time to read this article again and make comments accordingly.

I recommend that anyone who has some interest in this subject take the IAEI examinations just to have them on the shelf is needed.
http://www.iaei.org/certification.htm

I know many electrical contractors who left the field to work as an inspector, some are even Chairman of the NEC Committees.

And they seem to, after a while, see what we who are in that field have to deal with on a daily basis.

If I am still around for the 100th IAEI Anniversary, I predict that you too will have been an electrical inspector and say: "I see what you mean, Joe"
_________________________
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant
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#32023 - 12/13/03 08:56 AM Re: No wonder Article 80 is not widely adopted.
Ryan_J Offline
Moderator
Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 1374
Loc: West Jordan, Utah, USA
Bob: The important thing to remember is that state law cannot circumvent federal law. Even if article 80 were adopted, the 4th amendment still applies for illegal search and siezure. Article 80 really need not be adopted. These are already aforded by the building code, and apply to electrical violations. There is a book called "legal aspects of code administration" that points out the differences between illegal serach and siezure and enforcing the code, and there is only a thin line...
_________________________
Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City
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#32024 - 12/13/03 09:28 AM Re: No wonder Article 80 is not widely adopted.
iwire Offline
Moderator
Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4391
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
Quote:
The important thing to remember is that state law cannot circumvent federal law.


Nothing is set in stone, CA has medical pot against Federal law.

Quote:
These are already aforded by the building code, and apply to electrical violations.


I believe these rules are different state to state.

I do not believe any building codes go this far.

Quote:
The authority having jurisdiction shall be authorized to inspect, at all reasonable times, any building or premises for dangerous or hazardous conditions or equipment as set forth in this Code.


Not tying to give you a hard time Ryan, I just worry our personal freedoms are under constant attack from all directions.

Even from well intentioned people.
_________________________
Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
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#32025 - 12/13/03 09:34 AM Re: No wonder Article 80 is not widely adopted.
Ryan_J Offline
Moderator
Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 1374
Loc: West Jordan, Utah, USA
Bob: I couldn't agree more, the point I'm trying to make is that it is down-right alarming just how much power the building official and his/her authorized agents (inspectors) have.

Most of the violations that would warrant this type of search would be because of work being performed without a permit. With that in mind, these legal abilities are already there without adopting article 80.
_________________________
Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City
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#32026 - 12/13/03 05:24 PM Re: No wonder Article 80 is not widely adopted.
sparky Offline
Member
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5303
Very interesting that art 80 would be considered a tool for the homeboy security geeks, what would violators be considered? electro-terrorists?
Then again, nothing seems beneath this guy ...

all levity aside, our trade is not enforced with any level of equity, what many of us read in the trade mags or on the 'net in terms of safe practice may never occur during our tenure in the trade.

yet we are expected to uphold the documnet like the holy grail...

most here will remember Virgil Kelley aka wvsparky66 , an articulant EC whom aspired to cross his T's and dot his I's right?

where did it get him? SOL is where folks, because he had no backup for what is regarded as nothing more than a book full of extraineous spitting on the sidewalk laws...

he was far from alone , as anyone in similar straights will confess, your competition will EAT YOU ALIVE should you pursue such lofty goals !

believe me, i've run around playing 'codeboy' here enough myself to know that being adament will simply leave me mumbling codes in fingerless gloves..

and you know what? i was an IAEI member for 10 years, hold a cert too, what has the trade gained in terms of enforcement vs. workload from these people?

how about the NFPA?

or the sea of associated so-called saferty orginiations out there?

i would not argue beuracracy a double edged sword here, but imho the bigger pix needs to be rebooted in this trade, or we'll simply end up a curio for the home depot greeters to tout like some fossil.

~S~
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#32027 - 12/14/03 09:10 AM Re: No wonder Article 80 is not widely adopted.
electure Offline


Member
Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 4259
Loc: Fullerton, CA USA
I would welcome any building inspector into my home, as I would a policeman, fireman, etc.
I've nothing to hide, and they're on my side.
Apathy will not help us...Let's keep this "silly" Saving the World stuff going.
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#32028 - 12/14/03 10:50 AM Re: No wonder Article 80 is not widely adopted.
George Offline
Member
Registered: 02/23/02
Posts: 375
There is a difference between allowing an inspector in during construction and allowing him to come in at will at any time.

The practice allows grandfathering in of all previous work.

Article 80 would allow the AHJ to declare any work that was performed under previous codes to be delcared unsafe and require it be brought up to the current code.
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