ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#206195 - 06/05/12 08:16 PM 90 C RATED TERMINATIONS AT LUMINAIRE TERMINATIONS
patrick1 Offline
Member
Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 21
Loc: bensenville
It has consistently been a contention of mine that where a manufacturer of a Listed luminaire or fan/light requires 90C conductor terminations, that the wiring in that box (the point of termination) be 90c rated. This topic for all intensive purposes is a real "110.3" issue and a 410 Listing and Labeling topic. I would like to know how others feel about this. Listing drives a lot of interpretation and puts teeth in actual articles not left to examination or interpretation. Antiquated cloth and TW insulation drives this thinking of mine and I am a believer that that is probably one of the main reasons for the Luminaire Labeling containing a 90C tag. FIRE AWAY PEOPLES!
Top
2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
#206197 - 06/05/12 09:39 PM Re: 90 C RATED TERMINATIONS AT LUMINAIRE TERMINATIONS [Re: patrick1]
George Little Offline
Member
Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 1488
Loc: Michigan USA
I guess I would say that as an inspector, I'm looking for something that says that this luminaire must be connected to a circuit with 90 C conductors and if it doesn't say that, case closed. If it says "to be terminated on a 90 conductor" than thats what I look for on the inspection. The problem usually is that electricians are connecting luminaries that specify 90 C fixtures wires are to be connected to 90 branch circuit wiring and the branch circuit wiring is a conductor with 60 insulation rating. Quite often these luminaire replacements never get inspected.


410.74(A) 2008NEC


Edited by George Little (06/05/12 09:44 PM)
_________________________
George Little
Top
#206198 - 06/05/12 10:06 PM Re: 90 C RATED TERMINATIONS AT LUMINAIRE TERMINATIONS [Re: patrick1]
gfretwell Offline


Member
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9039
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
The issue is really the amount of heat that the luminaire ports back into the box. Like many things, the owner of a house with old wire is probably going to have to spend more money for a luminaire that handles the heat better and does not require the 90c wire.

I also agree if the HO buys one and puts it up himself, we will never know. I would like to trust that a licensed electrician would respect his craft (or fear a lawyer) enough not to do it.
_________________________
Greg Fretwell
Top
#206199 - 06/05/12 10:37 PM Re: 90 C RATED TERMINATIONS AT LUMINAIRE TERMINATIONS [Re: George Little]
patrick1 Offline
Member
Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 21
Loc: bensenville
I ordinarily try to prompt installers of these requirements ahead of time as best we can given that luminaries are not always on the site for the rough, in which case, in an earnest effort to avoid taking fixtures down on a final, we try to prompt electricians on a rough of these requirements. Working off NEC 2002 in our jurisdiction the conversation may go to the condition of the conductors. The intent is present by 110.3 and later cycles have 410.74 to reinforce the requirement. I still occasionally, have a debate about 60c and cloth wire being in the same box on my hands or pig-tailed over from the old conductors to the fixture wires in a ceiling box or sconce. I don't believe this is the intent of stating 90c terminations required when the conductors are intermingled and packed in the same box. Consistent, but sometimes questioned interpretation. (Often enough, there are other issues with the 60C and cloth wire at a given box where a 90C wiring termination is to be made that will dictate abating the older wire, such as, antiquation of insulation, length of conductors out of a box and box fill. I have not thoroughly viewed the history of the 90C requirements in Listings' of Luminaires, but my feeling it is somewhat manufacturer and insurance driven due to liabilities involved with older conductor and terminations to their equipment.) Thanks for posting a response! I do agree fully that if a new fixture does not have a termination temperature requirement comment of yours as well.
Top
#206200 - 06/05/12 10:43 PM Re: 90 C RATED TERMINATIONS AT LUMINAIRE TERMINATIONS [Re: patrick1]
patrick1 Offline
Member
Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 21
Loc: bensenville
Thanks for replies guys! Are there any Devil's advocates out there on this topic? Don't want a battle, just discussion. Thanks!
Top
#206201 - 06/05/12 10:52 PM Re: 90 C RATED TERMINATIONS AT LUMINAIRE TERMINATIONS [Re: patrick1]
patrick1 Offline
Member
Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 21
Loc: bensenville
In some instances I have suggested just getting those conductors out of that box and making the splice to an older circuit back in a switch prior to the Luminaire's box, this is consistent with getting all the cloth or 60C wire out of an outlet where a 90c termination is required. Does anyone else feel this is a viable solution in smaller scopes of work. (I generally encourage electricians to consider discussing replacing older circuits fully, with an "HO" if there are issues as such with adding load or re-energizing older conductors in the name of safety.)
Top
#206202 - 06/06/12 12:28 AM Re: 90 C RATED TERMINATIONS AT LUMINAIRE TERMINATIONS [Re: patrick1]
gfretwell Offline


Member
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9039
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
I don't think you have accomplished much if they just splice a few inches of THHN on TW in the same box and say the termination to the fixture wires are legit. The problem in the heat in the box.
_________________________
Greg Fretwell
Top
#206203 - 06/06/12 12:35 AM Re: 90 C RATED TERMINATIONS AT LUMINAIRE TERMINATIONS [Re: patrick1]
gfretwell Offline


Member
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 9039
Loc: Estero,Fl,usa
If you want the most controversial, you knock the box out, splice a piece of NM-b to the NM with a Tyco splice kit, shove it up in the ceiling and put in an old work box.

That will start a fist fight at an inspector meeting. wink

Quote:
334.40(B) Devices of Insulating Material. Switch, outlet, and tap devices of insulating material shall be permitted to be used without boxes in exposed cable wiring and for rewiring in existing buildings where the cable is concealed and fished. Openings in such devices shall form a close fit around the outer covering of the cable, and the device shall fully enclose the part of the cable from which any part of the covering has been removed. Where connections to conductors are by binding-screw terminals, there shall be available as many terminals as conductors.
_________________________
Greg Fretwell
Top
#206204 - 06/06/12 06:27 AM Re: 90 C RATED TERMINATIONS AT LUMINAIRE TERMINATIONS [Re: patrick1]
HotLine1 Offline


Member
Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6776
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
George may have hit it right on by saying the fixtures installed are not inspected.

"like-for-like" replacements are exempt from permit & inspection requirements here in NJ. But, who determines "like-for-like"? The H/O?

Going back years, I remember many, many boxes with conductors with insulation that was 'cooked'; the slightest touch crumbled the insulation.

_________________________
John
Top
#206205 - 06/06/12 06:44 AM Re: 90 C RATED TERMINATIONS AT LUMINAIRE TERMINATIONS [Re: gfretwell]
patrick1 Offline
Member
Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 21
Loc: bensenville
I am on board with the "heating in the box" and the "cooked wire" issues that happen in a box, I am missing the 334.40 (B) reference with regard to the ability to terminate a 90 C required termination to a cloth wire. Can you explain George?... anyone please feel free.
Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >

Member Spotlight
Member Since: 11/17/00
Posts: 2232
New in the Gallery:
SE cable question
Featured:

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

Shout Box


Who's Online
1 registered (ghost307), 67 Guests and 11 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
 
New in the Gallery:
SE cable question
 
Top Posters (30 Days)
Admin 49
HotLine1 43
gfretwell 18
Ruben Rocha 12
Trumpy 9
 
Newest Members
Freecrowder, clee512, Jdscott2005, FAIZAN, Regitest2

ECN Electrical Forums - sponsored by Electrical Contractor Network - Electrical and Code Related Discussion for Electrical Contractors, Electricians, Inspectors, Instructors, Engineers and other related Professionals