It has consistently been a contention of mine that where a manufacturer of a Listed luminaire or fan/light requires 90C conductor terminations, that the wiring in that box (the point of termination) be 90c rated. This topic for all intensive purposes is a real "110.3" issue and a 410 Listing and Labeling topic. I would like to know how others feel about this. Listing drives a lot of interpretation and puts teeth in actual articles not left to examination or interpretation. Antiquated cloth and TW insulation drives this thinking of mine and I am a believer that that is probably one of the main reasons for the Luminaire Labeling containing a 90C tag. FIRE AWAY PEOPLES!
I guess I would say that as an inspector, I'm looking for something that says that this luminaire must be connected to a circuit with 90° C conductors and if it doesn't say that, case closed. If it says "to be terminated on a 90° conductor" than thats what I look for on the inspection. The problem usually is that electricians are connecting luminaries that specify 90° C fixtures wires are to be connected to 90° branch circuit wiring and the branch circuit wiring is a conductor with 60° insulation rating. Quite often these luminaire replacements never get inspected.
410.74(A) 2008NEC
The issue is really the amount of heat that the luminaire ports back into the box. Like many things, the owner of a house with old wire is probably going to have to spend more money for a luminaire that handles the heat better and does not require the 90c wire.
I also agree if the HO buys one and puts it up himself, we will never know. I would like to trust that a licensed electrician would respect his craft (or fear a lawyer) enough not to do it.
I ordinarily try to prompt installers of these requirements ahead of time as best we can given that luminaries are not always on the site for the rough, in which case, in an earnest effort to avoid taking fixtures down on a final, we try to prompt electricians on a rough of these requirements. Working off NEC 2002 in our jurisdiction the conversation may go to the condition of the conductors. The intent is present by 110.3 and later cycles have 410.74 to reinforce the requirement. I still occasionally, have a debate about 60c and cloth wire being in the same box on my hands or pig-tailed over from the old conductors to the fixture wires in a ceiling box or sconce. I don't believe this is the intent of stating 90c terminations required when the conductors are intermingled and packed in the same box. Consistent, but sometimes questioned interpretation. (Often enough, there are other issues with the 60C and cloth wire at a given box where a 90C wiring termination is to be made that will dictate abating the older wire, such as, antiquation of insulation, length of conductors out of a box and box fill. I have not thoroughly viewed the history of the 90C requirements in Listings' of Luminaires, but my feeling it is somewhat manufacturer and insurance driven due to liabilities involved with older conductor and terminations to their equipment.) Thanks for posting a response! I do agree fully that if a new fixture does not have a termination temperature requirement comment of yours as well.
Thanks for replies guys! Are there any Devil's advocates out there on this topic? Don't want a battle, just discussion. Thanks!
In some instances I have suggested just getting those conductors out of that box and making the splice to an older circuit back in a switch prior to the Luminaire's box, this is consistent with getting all the cloth or 60C wire out of an outlet where a 90c termination is required. Does anyone else feel this is a viable solution in smaller scopes of work. (I generally encourage electricians to consider discussing replacing older circuits fully, with an "HO" if there are issues as such with adding load or re-energizing older conductors in the name of safety.)
I don't think you have accomplished much if they just splice a few inches of THHN on TW in the same box and say the termination to the fixture wires are legit. The problem in the heat in the box.
If you want the most controversial, you knock the box out, splice a piece of NM-b to the NM with a Tyco splice kit, shove it up in the ceiling and put in an old work box.
That will start a fist fight at an inspector meeting.
334.40(B) Devices of Insulating Material. Switch, outlet, and tap devices of insulating material shall be permitted to be used without boxes in exposed cable wiring and for rewiring in existing buildings where the cable is concealed and fished. Openings in such devices shall form a close fit around the outer covering of the cable, and the device shall fully enclose the part of the cable from which any part of the covering has been removed. Where connections to conductors are by binding-screw terminals, there shall be available as many terminals as conductors.
George may have hit it right on by saying the fixtures installed are not inspected.
"like-for-like" replacements are exempt from permit & inspection requirements here in NJ. But, who determines "like-for-like"? The H/O?
Going back years, I remember many, many boxes with conductors with insulation that was 'cooked'; the slightest touch crumbled the insulation.
I am on board with the "heating in the box" and the "cooked wire" issues that happen in a box, I am missing the 334.40 (B) reference with regard to the ability to terminate a 90 C required termination to a cloth wire. Can you explain George?... anyone please feel free.
Patrick:
From my days of tools I remember that packed with fixtures, there was a sleeve (6"-8") that was supposed to be installed on the supply conductors when the fixture was being mounted.
The sleeve was some type of woven materials and the instructions stated that it had to be installed on conductors <90 degree rated.
Then, how mant read and follow the instructions.
The 334.40 (B) refers to a device like Tyco makes. You should find it at the Tyco site. Similar to a large Wago.
Theory is to use that to splice NM to the existing conductors, shove it into the ceiling, install a new box & mount your fixture.
those manufacturer's also make fire alarm systems.
Tyco makes lots of stuff. They have acquired a lot of smaller companies. The original product (called Enerflex I think) was developed by AMP that sold out to Tyco.
There was a big stir about it because they were marketing it for any kind of new or old work. Then after some stink about it they said it was only for putting modular home sections together. Now it looks like Tyco is trying to say that is back to anywhere.
I was curious about it on the first go round and I had them send me some samples. I may still have them around here somewhere. This is an insulation displacement device, not a push in like the Wago. It is a bigger version of a 66 block or those blue clam shell things car stereo guys use. You don't strip the wire.
Greg:
I'll look for the PDF/PP I have tonite and see if I can put it up here.
Our code maven at DCA & a few of us inspectors went round & round with this a while back. I have not seen anyone use it here.
The only ones I have ever seen were the ones I got from AMP. It has just been a bone of contention all the way back to the late 20th century. We had a big discussion about it back when Harold was called "The Caper" (1995 or so). Joe Tedesco was the one who was most vehement about hating them. I have seen the same thing get fights started at IAEI meetings here.
It is just the idea of a flying NM splice buried in the wall that does it, in spite of the word "fished" in 334.40(B).
How in heck does ANY gadget bleed off the high heat implied by a demand for 90º C tap wire?
The issue is: does the fixture back-feed HEAT up the line to the point that the Romex is cooking?
Romex is THHN wearing a sweater. That's why its internal conductors are so strongly de-rated.
Having played with ancient lighting taps, I can assure you that they turn to dust.
The thought of an insulation displacement connection = point of spot resistance = hot spot. Terrific. Just what the patient doesn't need.
Try this link to a catalog page. Poke around the site & you may find PDF brochure & install info. I have it on a flash drive somewhere.
http://www.te.com/catalog/pn/en/1116377-2?RQPN=1116377-2
Greg:
1995 was not really that long ago!!!
NJEIA meetings were turning quite loud when I put the PDF, or PP for this up on the screen. "Old work"? Fished in??
Modular homes? Mobile homes? Some of the ECs that were members thought they hit the lottery!
I don't think they are cheap & haven't seen or heard of anyone around these parts use them. Then again, how would I know if one was in a wall?
Hope the link helps.
It is interesting that depeding on which document you look at for this device it might be restricted to NM-b only or any copper NM, it might be restricted to modular homes or in any dwelling. They seem to have had several changes of heart and still have documents around to allow the various uses.
A thought that popped into my head today: Wind the clock back to the late '70s doing maintenance/rehab type work.
easy job, replace hall light fixtures in 3 & 4 story multi-family bldgs. Old fixtures from the '50s; old tight spiral steel BX, pancake boxes with old gas nipples still there. Three wire (two circuits), two lamp surface mounted fixture, 100 watt bulbs.
Crumble disaster no matter how careful you were, down to the bare conductors. Boss says.."cut it back to good wire"!
Heck, it was luck IF there was any slack. A BX version of that TYCO gizmo would have saved countless hours.
Old, past sins committed ('buried boxes') are well past the statute of limitations.
Old, past sins committed ('buried boxes') are well past the statute of limitations.
Yup, only the installer and the fire department will ever know
How much 90 wire do you need before splicing on to 60 degree wire? This is not well defined and my answer is entirly inferred from other sources. Almost all product standards use 1.2 meters of wire as the default length to dissipate heat introduced at 1 end of the wire. Breaker tests use 4 feet. pot lights only use about 18 inches of 110 degree wire to get to the external JB where 90c wire is required.
When inspecting older homes I regualry reject new lights on old wiring. except for luminaires with a canopy and pendant most luminaires now have a 90c minimum temperature rating. so where new high temperature fixtures are installed on old 60c wiring it is pretty common to see no insulation on the wires if they are even touched. by splicing in 4 feet of wire between the old box and new luminaire we generally avoid this issue but the old JB is all to often in the exact location they want the new JB and light to be mounted. Not too hard if you can lift the box from the attic but the extension can be very hard to accomplish. It is usually best to find a luminaire that can be connected to 60c wire.
I have the same perspective also mikesh, with regard to older wiring and luminaire requirements,..there is always some way to get it done right or to the minimum requirements, it just takes a little more T&M.
How did this thread get this long without me?
90 degree? Heck, I frequently see a 105 degree requirement with the Ruud HID lights I use.
As I see it, the requirement ends as soon as you leave the enclosure. In practice, this means either a box on the opposite side of the wall, or a splice where the mounting meets the pole.
This has to be a requirement completely ignored by the trade, as the folks at Graybar have absolutely no idea what wire to supply. Inquiries typically get an answer involving a couple thousands feet of wire, with a price of $5/ft.
It seems that the electrical parts houses are completely ignorant of the high-temp appliance wire sold at the local hardware store or appliance repair shop. This is the stuff covered with woven fiberglass. 0.75/ft, cut to length, any color you want.
John..
MTW wire carries a 105ºC rating...
The last time i looked my THHN/THWN-2 also carried an MTW rating...
Look for this on #14 stranded tap wires.