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#195088 - 07/09/10 11:33 PM Suggestions for Industrial Power Monitoring
Scott35 Offline

Broom Pusher and
Member

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 2724
Loc: Anaheim, CA. USA
Hello all;

I have a Project with a long time Industrial Client, involving Power Monitoring.

A Little Background:

Client is a Nationwide Food and Beverage Distribution Company.

The Corporate Campus personnel have "experimented" with a Square D "PowerLogic" Monitoring System, with (2) Loads being Monitored for Demand Power (KWH) over a 7 day time frame.

The Two Monitored Loads were "Rytek" Electric Lift Doors.
These are high speed lift doors, using (1) 1.0 HP 480V 3 Phase 3450 RPM Motor for opening & closing the door, (2) 1/4 HP 480V 3 Phase Motors - for side blowers, and include 1200 Watts of Door Heat Trace.

The MODBUS "side" (the actual Meters) connects to the Facility's LAN via a Square D Ethernet Gateway.

Through the monitoring of the Two Rytek Lift Doors, they were able to visually observe the reduced KW Demand when they tweeked certain settings.

First off, they set the Blowers from "Continuously On", to "On Demand" (run only when the Door is Open & Closed).
I never seen any Rytek Doors set this way, so it was odd news for me! Only seen them set to run "On Demand".

Next they set the Door Heaters to Cycle On 15 Minutes, Off 15 minutes.

This made an impression with the Corporate Staff, and soon all Divisions were E-mailed a PowerPoint file containing a hand full of information, and instructions to "get one of these, now!"
The concept of "One Of These" being focused mainly on the Gateway, not the Metering or anything else!

The Contact Person we deal with just E-mailed the file, and said "Need Bid To Put This In".
I performed a Site Survey and tried to narrow down WTF they really wanted and actually needed!

...............................................

Site & Monitoring info:

Warehouse (Building Footprint) is apx. 380,000 sq. ft.; consisting of 10,000 sq. ft. Office Spaces, 90,000 sq. ft. Cold Storage, 270,000 sq. ft. Dry Storage (at ambient Temp.), and remaining 10K sq. ft. of Ancillary, Maintenance & Charging Stations.

For simplicity, all the Monitoring Devices will be installed at the MSB (Main Gear), to Monitor (9) Panelboards, (4) Charging Racks, and (1) Refrigeration Package.

Monitoring will only involve KW + KWH draw, per Panelboard / Charger Rack (plus the Refrigeration Package)

MSB is 4000 Amp, 480Y/277V 3 Phase 4 Wire; SCA = 65K.
Panelboard Feeders are:
(2) 100 Amp 480Y/277V 3 Phase 4 Wire,
(7) 200 Amp 480Y/277V 3 Phase 4 Wire,
(2) 250 Amp 480Y/277V 3 Phase 4 Wire.

Charger Racks (4) are 400 Amp, 480V 3 Phase 3 Wire, and the Refrigeration Package is 1,200 Amp, 480V 3 Phase 3 Wire.

The MSB is in a Dedicated Electrical Room, and as luck would have it, there is an IDF already installed in this Room, with a Fiber Back Bone to the MDF!!!

...........................................

My Proposed Concept is to use Square D's PowerLogic "Enercept" Meters - One per Feeder.

"Enercept" Meters are stand-alone Power Meters, which are connected together in Serial (RS-485), and use MODBUS Communication Protocol.
These Meters do not require any display devices, making them desirable for my Proposed Design.

RS-485 COM Line will be run from the last device, to an Ethernet Gateway (Sq. D EGX-100, or maybe EGX-300).

The Gateway will connect to the LAN through the IDF at the Electrical Room.

.................................................

My Questions... finally!!! smile

Has anyone dealt with the Square D PowerLogic Submetering Systems before, and if so, what headaches will I be facing (programming and addressing).

In addition, the cost of the Enercept Meters is from $700.00 to $1,200.00 - depending on size (Ampacity).
Is there another option for this Submetering Scheme, which is less $$$ than my concept, yet still is a simple platform like the Enercept devices?

Does Siemens offer something similar? The Gear is Siemens SB2 Style.

Any ideas, comments, experiences, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

FYI, I will place a linked post in the General Section, for as many views possible.

Please excuse the lengthy post.

Thanks in advance.

Scott

p.s.: Attached is image of MSB + Electrical Room, for reference.
SET


Attachments
USFS_MTS02.jpg

Description: Image #1: MSB and Electrical Room


_________________________
Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!

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#195093 - 07/10/10 07:59 PM Re: Suggestions for Industrial Power Monitoring [Re: Scott35]
LarryC Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 776
Loc: Winchester, NH, US
Knowing less than nothing about the equipment, a few questions.

1)Is there any reasonable expectation that this monitoring system will expand in scope? If so, can the system easily handle expected expansion?

2) Is there any reasonable expectation that this system will start performing load management functions? If so, can the system easily handle these expanded functions?

3) Will it need to monitor the standby generator inputs?

Larry C

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#195123 - 07/12/10 07:59 PM Re: Suggestions for Industrial Power Monitoring [Re: LarryC]
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6804
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
Scott:

Have you considered the E-mon equipment?

I'm not familiar with all the nuiances of multiple monitoring, I only installed many Emon units over the years, as basic check meters, single & 3 phase that were physically 'read' on a monthly schedule. Ranged from 100 to 2000 amps. I know there customer service guys (app engineers) were responsive when I had any questions.

I installed about 12 Sq D electronic check meters, both single & 3 phase, and had no issues, but again they were individuals as the Emons.
_________________________
John

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#195148 - 07/13/10 10:11 AM Re: Suggestions for Industrial Power Monitoring [Re: HotLine1]
sabrown Offline
Member

Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 297
Loc: Ogden, Utah, USA
We are required to throw this stuff on our new buildings over a certain size (we have our first two going in new offices, our existing buildings did not meet retrofit criteria with only one building coming close). We are not yet monitoring anything because things are still in the contruction phase. I can't even tell you why or what information we hope to collect, having the Square D ION7650 metering installed, just to look pretty is as near as I figure it as it sure did cost a nice sum.

Pay back? I sure hope that there is but I sure don't see where in our situations. As of now I figure Al Gore and the Clinton's (it was there era the requirement came out) bought stock. I asked who was going to monitor this stuff once, I was told it would likely be me.

I am sorry to be of no help, but I am interested in this thread.

Shane

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#195187 - 07/15/10 05:25 PM Re: Suggestions for Industrial Power Monitoring [Re: sabrown]
Scott35 Offline

Broom Pusher and
Member

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 2724
Loc: Anaheim, CA. USA
Larry, John and Shane;

Thanks for the responses.

I shall address each of them below:

LarryC:


1)Is there any reasonable expectation that this monitoring system will expand in scope? If so, can the system easily handle expected expansion?

Yes, they might decide to expand later, possibly Monitoring specific Loads, along with the current setup.

The Square D PowerLogic platform is like any other LON / CAN (Industrial Network), nodes may be added or removed as needed - similar to the IEEE 1392 USB Network, but with "Hard Addressing" of devices...

2) Is there any reasonable expectation that this system will start performing load management functions? If so, can the system easily handle these expanded functions?

The Client might contemplate this option in the future, especially since current trends somewhat "dictate" Load Management techniques (by "dictate" I mean the latest "Buzz-Word").

Incorporating into a "Total Management Setup" involves additional devices, but they all use a similar Protocol (MODBUS).

3) Will it need to monitor the standby generator inputs?

Not at this time.

Thanks, Larry!.

...................................................

Hotline1:



Have you considered the E-mon equipment?

Yes, I have considered E-Mon D-Mon, along with Siemens and some 3rd Party equipment.

E-Mon did not appear to offer a System which offers the capability I need, unless I was researching the wrong areas of their web site.

I'm not familiar with all the nuiances of multiple monitoring, I only installed many Emon units over the years, as basic check meters, single & 3 phase that were physically 'read' on a monthly schedule. Ranged from 100 to 2000 amps. I know there customer service guys (app engineers) were responsive when I had any questions.

Good Customer Support is necessary on this Project, as I will need to turn over the operations to the I.T. Department (Net Geeks) after final commissioning, and if I run into Software issues while configuring the devices.

I installed about 12 Sq D electronic check meters, both single & 3 phase, and had no issues, but again they were individuals as the Emons.

Did the Power Meters connect to a PC or anything similar?
Were there any difficulties during setup?

Thanks, John!!!

....................................................

sabrown:

We are required to throw this stuff on our new buildings over a certain size (we have our first two going in new offices, our existing buildings did not meet retrofit criteria with only one building coming close). We are not yet monitoring anything because things are still in the construction phase. I can't even tell you why or what information we hope to collect, having the Square D ION7650 metering installed, just to look pretty is as near as I figure it as it sure did cost a nice sum.

I feel that this entire Project is somewhat similar; just to look really, really good!
The Power Point Presentation brings on a "High Tech - Go Green" impression, being mostly "Eye Candy" with little to no purpose.


Apx. cost for the PowerLogic devices - alone: $12K!!!

Pay back? I sure hope that there is but I sure don't see where in our situations. As of now I figure Al Gore and the Clinton's (it was there era the requirement came out) bought stock. I asked who was going to monitor this stuff once, I was told it would likely be me.

I do not see a dramatic payback to this Investment either - since the emphasis was placed on the Ethernet Gateway + the Graphical Data only, not on the use of the System, nor the way consumption was / would be reduced, as result of collected Data.

Many key benefits and user options were not even known when I performed the Site Survey. Needless to say, the Client's "Gears Began Spinning" once I described the most basic of uses and capabilities.

I am sorry to be of no help, but I am interested in this thread.

Not a problem!
I appreciate the contributions.

Thanks, Shane!

..................................................

Thanks once again to everyone!

I'll keep you informed of the outcome.

Scott
_________________________
Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!

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#195189 - 07/15/10 07:05 PM Re: Suggestions for Industrial Power Monitoring [Re: Scott35]
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6804
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
Scott:
All of the units I installed, E-Mon & Sq D were only used for revenue collections from tenants, and they were manually read each month +/-, by myself, or one of my sparkies. Def not close to hi-tech.

Installs were all relatively easy, Sq D being the winner in that dept.

E-Mon customer assistance was readily available and not used very often. Sq D service & assistance again superior. One defective unit diagnosed via landline connection and replaced via next day Fed-Ex. There were a few 'other' check/submeters in a few office buildings that I was involved with adding a few new and diagnosing issues. Don't remember the brand, and NOT worth remembering the non-existant tech support.
_________________________
John

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#195192 - 07/16/10 04:27 AM Re: Suggestions for Industrial Power Monitoring [Re: HotLine1]
Scott35 Offline

Broom Pusher and
Member

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 2724
Loc: Anaheim, CA. USA
John,

Thanks for this latest reply.

Looks like Square D's PowerLogic is the winner!

Will update throughout the progress of this Project.

Scott
_________________________
Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!

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#195466 - 08/04/10 02:17 AM Re: Suggestions for Industrial Power Monitoring [Re: Scott35]
frenchelectrican Offline

Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 938
Loc: Wi/ Paris France { France for ...
Scott.,

The Sq D Powerlogic is very good product and There is a European verison as well and I have one on not too long ago it is not too bad but the cost Ugh the unit I order for my customer that was little over 8,000 Euros but once it running it work very good and yes you can able get the remote verison as well but I do not know if they can instat show up or delay responde.

Merci.
Marc
_________________________
Pas de problme,il marche n'est-ce pas?"(No problem, it works doesn't it?)


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#195508 - 08/07/10 02:09 AM Re: Suggestions for Industrial Power Monitoring [Re: frenchelectrican]
Scott35 Offline

Broom Pusher and
Member

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 2724
Loc: Anaheim, CA. USA
Marc,

Thank you for the reply!

Yes, the cost is high, but if the equipment works well, installs easily, and has a low MTBF rate, the costs will be justified.

The Energy Meters I plan for this Project are the "Enercept" line - which are stand-alone + "Self-Containing" CTs; making the "Physical" installations as simple as possible.
This justifies the $750.00 - $1,200.00 per unit cost, by requiring very little installation labor.

Now my next dilemma: What is this Client's Net Geek like?!!!
smile wink

Scott
_________________________
Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!

Top
#195514 - 08/07/10 08:51 PM Re: Suggestions for Industrial Power Monitoring [Re: Scott35]
frenchelectrican Offline

Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 938
Loc: Wi/ Paris France { France for ...
Scott.,

I am sure it can able run from the computer montior to read the power level but if I recalled correct there is a setting that you can able read it instat or other time peroid as requested.

But let me pass you one quick tip make sure you used sheilded data cable if you going to read it remote otherwise you may get incorrect infomation going thru the system.

The outage time to installed is very breif the time I did it was sechduled for 6 hours so I have plenty time to install and check it out due the same time I have to installed new breaker so got two items done on one shot.

The actual installment time about a hour or less depending on conferation of the CT and the conductor layout.

Merci.
Marc
_________________________
Pas de problme,il marche n'est-ce pas?"(No problem, it works doesn't it?)


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