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#191987 - 01/22/10 10:53 AM Re Sec 210.12 NEC
harold endean Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/02
Posts: 2248
Loc: Boonton, NJ
I have a question under section 210.12 (B)......Family room,dining room,living room, parlors,libraries, dens,bedrooms,sunrooms,recreation room, closets,hallways, or "SIMILAR ROOMS OR AREAS" can someone define "Similar"?

What about lights in the kitchen? Lights in a unfinished basement? Finished basement? Lights in a garage? Attic?

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#191990 - 01/22/10 11:26 AM Re: Re Sec 210.12 NEC [Re: harold endean]
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 5300
Loc: Blue Collar Country
Well, thereby hangs the tail ...

Mike Holt was first to realize that this list failed to include stairwells. Others at his site also noted that the non-GFCI protected kitchen circuits were also not required to have AFCI protection.

Now you mention the lighting.

As I see it, the code panel said 'outlets' when they were thinking 'receptacles.'

Another possibility is that they wanted to say 'all' without actually saying 'all.' This might explain the earlier limiting of AFCI requirements to bedrooms; at that time, it was rare for a bedroom to have a dedicated circuit.

Who knows? I've said all along that the AFCI requirements, whatever the motive, were 'bad law,' It's no surprise that these issues keep popping up.

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#191993 - 01/22/10 12:07 PM Re: Re Sec 210.12 NEC [Re: renosteinke]
ghost307 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 877
Loc: Chicago Illinois USA
When the AFCI requirement first reared its head they were needed for "receptacle outlets". In fact, that's where the Chicago Code still is.

The next NEC Code cycle that was revised to specifically remove the word "receptacle" so that it would apply to all outlets; be they lights, receptacles, hard-wired, or whatever.

I was told that the bedroom receptacle outlets was indeed intended as a starting point. The eventual plan was to included everything in the entire house, but they wanted to start small to see if there were any major issues before they expanded the requirements.
_________________________
Ghost307

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#191997 - 01/22/10 03:21 PM Re: Re Sec 210.12 NEC [Re: ghost307]
HotLine1 Offline

Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 6786
Loc: Brick, NJ USA
Harold:

I guess a 'prayer room', media room, excersize room, 'office', or basically whatever you want to call the rooms. basically, if it isn't GFI, it's AFCI?

I'm really starting to think that the powers that be in Trenton used their heads when they waited till now to adopt AFCI here.

Let the debate continue....
_________________________
John

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#192004 - 01/22/10 05:25 PM Re: Re Sec 210.12 NEC [Re: HotLine1]
sparky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5543
Quote:
Let the debate continue....


sure, if you can stomach cyclical mobius strip logic.....~S~

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#192014 - 01/23/10 08:56 AM Re: Re Sec 210.12 NEC [Re: sparky]
harold endean Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/02
Posts: 2248
Loc: Boonton, NJ
John,

My friend Tony wrote to Suzanne and asked her about the Rehab code and she e-mail him and I back. I sent you a copy of his letter and her reply. I am not sure if I sent it to your home or work e-mail.

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#192015 - 01/23/10 09:05 AM Re: Re Sec 210.12 NEC [Re: harold endean]
harold endean Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/02
Posts: 2248
Loc: Boonton, NJ
Reno/ghost,


I wrote to my state and complained about the new '08 NEC. I have been in this business for 30 years or more. This has to be the worst code change that I have ever seen. There are too many manufactures who sit on the code making panel. They all keep pushing for their products to become law. This way it sells more products. How much more will AFCI add to the price of a new house?

I am also getting questions from EC's about AFCI protection for pool wiring and HVAC wiring. I ask why pool wiring. They say it is because it goes through a bedroom. So since it goes through a bedroom, it must be AFCI protected.

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#192017 - 01/23/10 09:49 AM Re: Re Sec 210.12 NEC [Re: harold endean]
sparky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5543
maybe the Q to ask is if there's any rop's in the works asking for a clarification.....?

~S~

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#192029 - 01/23/10 01:54 PM Re: Re Sec 210.12 NEC [Re: harold endean]
frenchelectrican Offline

Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 938
Loc: Wi/ Paris France { France for ...
Originally Posted By: harold endean
Reno/ghost,


I wrote to my state and complained about the new '08 NEC. I have been in this business for 30 years or more. This has to be the worst code change that I have ever seen. There are too many manufactures who sit on the code making panel. They all keep pushing for their products to become law. This way it sells more products. How much more will AFCI add to the price of a new house?

I am also getting questions from EC's about AFCI protection for pool wiring and HVAC wiring. I ask why pool wiring. They say it is because it goes through a bedroom. So since it goes through a bedroom, it must be AFCI protected.


Harold.,
You did bring up good question related to the pool circuit that have to run thur the bedroom.
But if not useation { have a switch or outlet } in bedroom IMO it do not have to be AFCI at all.

That question will be open answer format due there are few ways to address this situation.

Speaking in my state { Wisconsin } they just start enforeing AFCI not too long ago so it will be instering how it come out. In France we don't have any AFCI devices yet but heard talking about it but nothing in written yet.

Merci,Marc
_________________________
Pas de problme,il marche n'est-ce pas?"(No problem, it works doesn't it?)


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#192117 - 01/27/10 05:58 PM Re: Re Sec 210.12 NEC [Re: frenchelectrican]
Jim M Offline
Member

Registered: 08/10/01
Posts: 453
Loc: Chestertown, MD, USA
As far as the wiring for a pool or something else going thru a bedroom I really don't see the need for the AFCI. It is not serving any of the area requiring AFCI protection. What is the kitchen or bathroom circuits went thru the bedroom? Could the AHJ reasonably expect to now require AFCI protection?

This reminds me of the closet lighting that was exempt during one of the early requirements for AFCIs in the bedrooms. I also remember that switches in bedrooms for floodlights outside did not require AFCI protection.

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