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#150050 - 08/22/04 05:43 AM Did I go overboard?
PCBelarge Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/03
Posts: 657
Loc: Dobbs Ferry, NY, USA
A contractor has a situation where he called our company (inspection company)to help him lay out a service installation in an existing service room.

We discussed some stuff, but needed to see inside the main service switchboard, which meant taking the cover off of the 480/277v gear. They had no PPE with them, so I told them I would gladly come back and take a look when they provided all of us with the proper PPE that is necessary. They didn't get too upset, but I heard through the grapevine that they were upset at the time delay it is causing. I see this as a necessary lession to start pushing in our industry, what do you think?

Pierre
_________________________
Pierre Belarge

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Arc Flash PPE Clothing, LOTO & Insulated Tools
#150051 - 08/22/04 06:10 AM Re: Did I go overboard?
iwire Offline
Moderator

Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4343
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
Pierre I tried to answer this post but found I could not without being a hypocrite.

On one hand you are 100% correct.

On the other hand I live in the real world and panel covers get removed all the time on live equipment.

The only answer I can come up with is that you must do what you feel is right, if that upsets ECs so be it.

I think it may affect your business, as in fewer calls.

Good Luck

Bob
_________________________
Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

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#150052 - 08/22/04 07:44 AM Re: Did I go overboard?
Bjarney Offline
Moderator

Registered: 04/10/02
Posts: 2561
Loc: West-Southern Inner-Northeast ...
 
One thing to realize is that this aspect of electrical safety did not happen overnight. Carefully investigate the status of local adoption of NFPA70E / IEEE1584. A few assorted reference links follow. This particular stuff is free online, but do expect others to be likewise.

standards.ieee.org/esrc/techpapers.html www.ewh.ieee.org/cmte/ias-esw/ www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=FEDERAL_REGISTER&p_id=13346[/U RL] [URL=http://www.arcwear.com]www.arcwear.com

An earlier [1982] RH Lee paper that precipitated current recommendations is www.ieee-pcic.org/archive/The%20other%20Electrical%20Hazard%20%20 %20Electric%20Arc%20Flash%20Burns.pdf

It seems that in places of employment, workers should first be formally oriented in 29CFR1910.331-.335, prior to arc-flash safety.




[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 08-22-2004).]

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#150053 - 08/22/04 09:40 AM Re: Did I go overboard?
capt al Offline
Member

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 203
Loc: Norton, Ma USA
Pierre, I am not sure I understand you correctly. Did you want the EC to provide you with PPE??? I would not trust anyone elese's gear. I carry my own company supplied PPE everyday in my service van. It is also tested at regular intervals.

I agree with you pointing out the fact they needed PPE before opening the service equipment. Good luck driving that point home!!!

Al

[This message has been edited by capt al (edited 08-22-2004).]

[This message has been edited by capt al (edited 08-22-2004).]

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#150054 - 08/22/04 10:28 AM Re: Did I go overboard?
Ron Offline
Member

Registered: 03/13/02
Posts: 577
Loc: White Plains, NY
Pierre,
I don't think you were going overboard, as OSHA requires the electrical worker to have PPE issued by the employer (although in your case, you might be in employer). I also am a hypocrite, as I get on my soap box all the time with the EC's and co-workers I deal with, and tell them how terrible an arc flash burn would ruin their life (and their families). I head back to the office to do IEEE-1584 calcs for clients, then the next time I'm in a rush, cause I need to see a CB model number that is blocked by a panel cover, I remove the cover with out PPE. Or even if I have PPE on, I have no way of knowing if the PPE level I have on is adequate for the installation (until I do the calcs).
Keep on pushing. We'll all be on the OSHA bandwagon sooner than later.
_________________________
Ron

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#150055 - 08/22/04 11:07 AM Re: Did I go overboard?
PCBelarge Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/03
Posts: 657
Loc: Dobbs Ferry, NY, USA
Bob
I know about reality, I have been around for a long time . I have, since becoming an inspector, heard/seen more accidents around our area than I thought really occurred.

As Pierre from Technical Training Solutions, I preached safety, but really got mostly blank looks from the guys. Now as an inspector, I can get some results - just like the other day. The problem I see is I am the only one really pressing the point. I also can see that I am going to need Support. I know we will not eliminate it, but reducing it is not a bad idea.

I also know the two main reasons for not seeing as much safety implementation;
1. MONEY
2. Training

I cannot help with the money, but I can sure try and help with the training.

Pierre
_________________________
Pierre Belarge

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#150056 - 08/24/04 08:03 PM Re: Did I go overboard?
Trumpy Offline

Member

Registered: 07/05/02
Posts: 8540
Loc: SI,New Zealand
Pierre,
Not sure what you mean by having a Company provide you with PPE?.
But, other side of the coin, why did the EC's not have any with them either?.
I agree with Bob though, in the real world, panels do get removed without proper PPE and that's OK, as long as you have worked on the said panel before and know what is behind the Dead front.
But, Pierre, I back you up 100%, in getting the guys to wear the gear, you only have to have the one arc flash.
_________________________
Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

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#150057 - 09/03/04 11:34 AM Re: Did I go overboard?
iwire Offline
Moderator

Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4343
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
From Capt. Al





What level of protection do you want?
_________________________
Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

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#150058 - 09/07/04 04:06 AM Re: Did I go overboard?
Trumpy Offline

Member

Registered: 07/05/02
Posts: 8540
Loc: SI,New Zealand
Iwire,(Bob)
Thanks for posting them pics here mate!.
PPE is always going to be a contentious issue, some people reckon you need more and others reckon you need less.
But, at the end of the day, I'd go for more than less, more means better body protection.
And on the same token, if an accident did occur, I'd hate to be found wanting in the protection department.
With the pics that Joe T has in his Area, I want to wear something substantial after seeing them!.
And it is not as though PPE of the highest level is worn all day.
I'd sooner wear that sort of gear for a while than spend time in hospital again.
_________________________
Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

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#150059 - 09/07/04 04:10 AM Re: Did I go overboard?
Trumpy Offline

Member

Registered: 07/05/02
Posts: 8540
Loc: SI,New Zealand
Just a question Capt. Al.
Is that lower suit fireproof?
Or at the least self-extinguishing?
_________________________
Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

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