Just read through all the posts re arc faults. I need a little clarification on the intended requirements. Service upgrade existing house... Install arc faults for bed circuits? I am in MA if that has any effect on the answer. Thanks

What NEC is in effect?
For 1999 dwelling unit bedroom recptacle outlets
For 2002 all outlets in a dwelling unit bedroom.

Electricmanscott,
A)There are some poco's and AHJ's that are interperting this code to apply to upgrades, as in my area....
1) an upgrade i have next week will incorporate 12 AFCI's @ $40( my cost) ea.
2) Multiwire circuits are a problem...****
B)There are others who claim it the NEC is not retroactive.
C)There are many that would claim it's "A good idea"

210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.
(A) Definition. An arc-fault circuit interrupter is a device intended to provide protection from the effects of arc faults by recognizing characteristics unique to arcing and by functioning to de-energize the circuit when an arc fault is detected.
(B) Dwelling Unit Bedrooms. All branch circuits that supply 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter listed to provide protection of the entire branch circuit.
commentary
The definition of arc-fault circuit interrupter given in 210.12(A) explains its function. The basic objective is to de-energize the branch circuit when an arc-fault is detected.
Arc-fault circuit interrupters are evaluated to UL 1699, Safety Standard for Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupter, using testing methods that create or simulate arcing conditions to determine the product's ability to detect and interrupt arcing faults. These devices are also tested to verify that arc detection is not unduly inhibited by the presence of loads and circuit characteristics that may mask the hazardous arcing condition. In addition, these devices are evaluated to determine resistance to unwanted tripping due to the presence of arcing that occurs in control and utilization equipment under normal operating conditions or to a loading condition that closely mimics an arcing fault, such as a solid-state electronic ballast or a dimmed load.
UL 1699 is the standard covering arc-fault devices that have a maximum rating of 20 amperes intended for use in 120-volt ac, 60 Hz circuits. These devices may also include the capability to perform other functions such as overcurrent protection, ground-fault circuit-interruption, and surge suppression. UL 1699 currently recognizes five types of arc-fault circuit interrupters: the branch/feeder AFCI, combination AFCI, cord AFCI, outlet AFCI, and portable AFCI. Placement of the device in the circuit and a review of the UL guide information must be considered when complying with 210.12. The NEC is clear that the objective is to provide protection of the entire branch circuit. (See Article 100 for the definition of branch circuit.) For instance, a cord AFCI could not be used to comply with the requirement of 210.12 to protect the entire branch circuit.
Section 210.12 requires that AFCI protection be provided on branch circuits that supply outlets (receptacle, lighting, etc.) in dwelling unit bedrooms. The requirement is limited to 15- and 20-ampere 125-volt circuits. There is no prohibition against providing AFCI protection on other circuits or in locations other than bedrooms.**** Because circuits are often shared between a bedroom and other areas such as closets and hallways, providing AFCI protection on the complete circuit would comply with 210.12.

Thanks for replies guys. I read all the info in the handbook and it realy does not give a clear answer. If seems as if the ahj is making their own interpretation on this one as the code does not specify. If this is the case why not require gfci breakers for kitchens and baths without protection, when upgrading service. While I like the idea of the technology I dont agree with the vagueness of the code. I feel they really left this wide open for everyone involved. I will try to contact someone I know from a cmp and get his thoughts on what the intention of the requirements were when written.
Oh great no more spellcheck

EMan,

Sorry about the Spellcheck,
Please let us know if you should glean anymore info on this subject.

Bill

Just heard back from my secret code source He informs me that you must indeed install arc fault breakers on bedroom circuits when upgrading a service. Again this is in MA so it may or may not apply everywhere. Also with some further research I have found that only Cutler Hammer makes a two pole arc fault breaker so beware the multi wire barnch circuits!

EMan,

I wonder if that is going to be a common interpretation. On Long Island (Suffolk County) it is being interpreted as being required in New Construction only. Additionally, they have already decided that the Smoke Detectors in Bedrooms are a Life-Safety issue and will leave AFCI protection on these at the option of the Electrician or Consumer. BTW, NY, as a State is still oficially on the 1996 NEC.

Bill

A 2 pole for 220V loads would not be required per 210.12. However a 220/120v load , i.e.-multiwire circuit would require to be protected via what I understand is an AFIT ( type of AFCI) , made for multiwire circuits and a dif animal than a straight 220V 2-pole AFCI.

This is what i've been looking for, especially in a larger ampacity, 40-60A .
So far I have had no luck finding one.



[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 02-08-2002).]

Bad link, oops!

Try This click on "UL on line certification directory", >>>keyword search>>>>afci...

Massachusetts has an amendment that requires Arc Fault CBs when doing service upgrades. There is a slight wording change and FPN note added to 210.12 (B) and an added letter (C) “OVERCURRENT DEVICE REPLACEMENTS” “Where panel boards are replaced that contain one or more circuits requiring AFCI protection by this or other sections of the Code, AFCI protection shall be provided for such circuits”.

From an e-mail requesting info...


Eventually, this led me to the old Siemens tec-support # in my area 1-978-685-6077.
and an 8 pg fax from the Mar/April 00' NFPA journal, a great dissertation on the attributes and styles of AFCI's , but no mention of any( of the 5 styles)addressing a multiwire circuit.

It is frustrating to talk to manufacture's that don't even know what they make

Update,
Having finally reached a 'Real Human' as well as a sparky @ Siemens, I have learned that they DO NOT MAKE a 2-pole AFCI to address multiwire circuits.
He claimed that they had numerous calls on multiwire compliance, and that they were 'working on it'....


counting to 11.......

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 02-14-2002).]

Dear Steve

We are only making 1 pole AFCI breakers at this time. Sorry

Thank you for your Square D inquiry


Schneider Electric/Square D Company
Jim Betournay
Product Support Specialist
Customer Information Center
1-888-778-2733

12.....

Cutler Hammer will not have the
\"AFIT\" until Nov 02' , distributors will probably not have them until 03'....
http://www.ch.cutler-hammer.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?

13....



[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 02-15-2002).]

Cutler-Hammer has two pole Arc Fault breakers available. We have independent trip and common trip. Common trip meet the requirements of 210-4 for multiwire circuits on the same yoke. The independent trip can be used on home run circuits. The date on the website was a mis-print. It should have read November of 2001. The web page has been updated, and you can find the cat numbers at http://www.ch.cutler-hammer.com/NAS...8&Sec=products&uid=Variables.uid

It appears Cut-Ham has cornered the market...

If one company has cornered the market, I don't think any code can legally require the use of that type of equipment.
Don(resqcapt19)

As far as retro-active code compliance, a few of our local suburban Phila. townships have Use & Occupancy Certificate requirements for transfer of real estate. Along with the current requirements of installing GFCIs, Ground rods, and a few other things, I was informed that as of March 1st, they will also require AFCIs in order to sell a home. I am going to notify the realtors that I work for that the average cost of U&O related electrical work will now likely increase by a few hundred dollars. This does not include the problems I will encounter when I come across a Pushmatic of FPE panel. What's a fella to do? Whole panel changeout, subpanel? I dunno!

Redsy,

Ooooo!
That's another can of worms there.

Bill

Don, code doesn't mandate the home run wiring method, it mandates the use of AFCI. We've developed a product that allows contractors to continue wiring homes using the same methods they've been using, and we save them a ton of time and money. I think I'll leave it up to the contractors which they would prefer to do:
A. Use competitor A's product that requires me to change my wiring method and wire two runs of 2 conductor, or:
B. Use Cutler-Hammer's two pole AFIT, and continue to save labor by using three conductor.

Hmmm....which would you choose???

Brendan,
Even though I'm still not convinced that AFCIs will do what we've been told that they will do, I don't have a problem with the new construction requirement. The problem is in the areas where the AFCI requirement is being enforced on service panel changes. In these cases, if there is multiwire branch circuits, the contractor is limited to one manufacturer and I don't believe a code is legally permitted to require the installation of a product made by only one manufacturer.
Also based on the 2002 code wording, I'm not sure if the rule is enforceable anywhere. I know the intent, but the rule only requires protection for 125 volt rated "outlets". Outlets don't have a voltage rating. The "outlet" point on the wiring system where the receptacle is connected or the light fixture is connected. This needs some wording changes for the 2005 code, then again, maybe enough people will figure out that the AFCI requirement was put into the code based on "Enron" type statistics and the requirement will be deleted.

PS: good to see you back in the forum.
Don(resqcapt19)

I saw a flier from GE that they have a two pole device also. I'm not sure what your comment about Enron has to do with AFCI, but I can tell you:
1. Electrical fires are a problem (43,000 a year, and arcing faults are a major contributor to those fires.
2. We (the company that invented and has the patent on the first circuit breaker) was the first to develop and market a technology that can dramatically reduce the incidence of electrical arcing.
and:
3. Independent organizations concerned with safety (Consumer Products Safety Commission, National Fire Protection Agency, National Association of State Fire Marshals, Missouri Burn Center, etc.) have endorsed the technology.

I would like someone to tell me if an AFCI breaker is supposed to trip when an electric blanket that is plugged into an AFCI protected circuit developes an arcing fault. Or a portable space heater. Or an extension cord ran under a throw rug. Or any other cord connected equipment that developes a break in a conductor that begins arcing. I have set these situations up in my shop and have not had an AFCI breaker trip under any of these conditions. It is my opinion that these types of arcing are what cause the majority of home fires that are caused by arcing. Most fires(again in my opinion)that start in bedrooms of homes are not electrical at all. They are smoking related.
I just haven't had anyone who's been willing to tell me that an AFCI will see and interrupt an arcing fault in an electric blanket before a non-AFCI breaker would.(parrallel fault).

And of those 43,000 fires, according to a statement made by Mr. Clarey of Cutler-Hammer, AFCI protection could be expected to prevent about 6200 of them if all dwelling unit circuits had AFCI protection. (Comment 2-68 in the '98ROC.) Fire data for 1996 indicates that 13% of dwelling unit fires originated in the bedroom. This would mean that the 2002 code requirement for AFCIs could be expected to prevent about 806 fires per year or about 2% of the total dwelling uint fires.
Don(resqcapt19)

I don't understand the hesitancy to accept AFCIs. As a life safety device, I would be willing to accept any proven numbers(lives saved) as a good place to start. In the future, the technology will improve, the cost will decrease and the requirements will expand.
What are the basic arguments opposing these devices?

Don, the analogy I would use here is automobile seat belts. It is unfortunate that there were thousands of people that died in accidents in older cars after seat belts were mandated. It is the nature of safety codes that they cannot cure all existing unsafe conditions. There are, unfortunately, about a billion circuits out there that will not get this protection for 10-15-20 years or more. By changing code, we've started down a long path of providing increased fire protection. Over the next 15-25 years before those breakers are changed out, we could lose as many as 10,000 folks in residential electrical fires (400 a year for 25 years). That total is more than three times the number of folks that died in the World Trade Center. However, since these folks die one or two at a time, this does not get the attention that it warrants.

It is unrealistic to change out all existing circuits at once, but if we never start, the conditions will remain the same. When GFCI was added to the code, it was not mandated for existing conditions. There are still homes today that are unprotected by GFCI, and there are people that are electrocuted in those homes. When I added an outdoor circuit to my 50-year-old home, I added a GFCI breaker. That breaker saved my four-year-old daughter's life. If the electrical code had never changed, it would not have been standard operating procedure for me to add that protection, and my daughter would not be here today.

Redsy,
My only point is that I don't believe they will prevent anywhere near the number of fires that we been told that they will. I do believe that they will save some lives, but I also believe that the majority of dwelling unit fires are caused by series arcing and AFCIs are not very effective in detecting series arcs.
Don(resqcapt19)

After 4 calls, i have found one supplier that has a 2 wk lead time on an AFIT, they are around $60.
GE carriers were stumped ( and so was I ) as to a part #
Having been on this 'AFIT' quest now for a few weeks, The 'supplier' feedback has usually been fuzzy. Basically a supplier will not stock what is not frequently sold
( niether will I )
The manufacture's follow suit here.
Either party has had a good laugh at state's ammending codes to require a widget barely on the market. ( @ our expense...)
The other day I installed 13 AFCI's , doubling the expense of a panel upgrade.
My point is WE in the field have to justify any expense that appears as such a quantum leap in one code cycle.
Fred Flinstone will ultimatly trade notes with Barney next door , who in 98' did not pitch double for a like job, and the onus will be on the contractor.
While I'll agree with the concept's validity of AFCI protection , the specifics, stat's , and details remain fuzzy.
Even Dave Dini is responding in a 'Politically Correct' manner
(Note i'll leave out his CMP status...)
Testimonial and advocation from safety or regulating orginizations unfortunatly have little impact in the field, and the average Fred or Barney in my experience holds the contractor responsible as to performance.
All I can say is, if your not into the 02' yet, prepare yourself for public scrutiny here, it's a bear!
IMO, the manufacture's should back this product 100%, no questions asked. If this is the 'glorified widget' of the electrical trade, there should be an iron clad gaurantee included that I as a contractor can pass onto my customers.

Put yer $$$$ where your marketing hype is please.