My company maintains over 4000 military homes on a prominanate installation and many others on other installations.

Recently some housing inspectors that have no electrical training have decided that if an occupant wiggles their electrical plug when they are extracting it from an outlet and breaks the tiny piece of plastic that is immediately adjacent to the grounding slot on the outlet that the outlet must be replaced. The damage is extremely minor and is not normally even noticed unless one examines it closely. I'm hoping that many of you have seen just how small this damage is and can help me as I struggle with this issue. The NEC Code that probably applies is:

NEC 110.12 (C), page 70-34, which states the following:

"Integrity of Electrical Equipment and Connection.
Internal parts of electrical equipment, including busbars, wiring terminals, insulators, and other surfaces, shall not be damaged or contaminated by foreign materials such as paint, plaster, cleaners, abrasives, or corrosive residues. There shall be no damaged parts that may adversely affect safe operations or mechanical strength of the equipment such s parts that are broken; bent; cut; or deteriorated by corrosion, chemical action, or overheating."

As it pertains to the first sentence, this damage is not internal, and as it pertains to the last sentence it does not adversely effect safe operations or mechanical strength. In that it poses no safety hazard I submit that the replacement of these outlets, often new ones, is unnessary and the money spent for this could be better spent on other safety issues. I would appreciate your thoughts.

My first thoughts agree with yours: there is no danger.

My second thoughts are that, if I'm getting paid, no problem.

I agree with Larry. So who do you charge for this? And is it like a Thousand Dollar toliet seat cost since it is a military complex possible big bucks and any questions blame the inspectors.

I agree there is no real danger. I might even find one like that in my house.
I can see how this could become a "sore spot" for you if your company has a maintenance agreement and is charging a flat out yearly price to handle such minor things. On the other hand if you are able to charge for them why not wait until you have a days worth of work at any one particular base and go to it ?

One upside to this is that there is a system of sorts to replace receptacles. You may not see other issues that may exist hidden in the device or related to the circuit connections. For example loose connections or poor tension. I would also expect the newer receptacles to be a bit less susceptable to the damage you are referring to. Do you perform any kind of test on the finished replacement?

Thanks to all for your imput. I was sure hoping that Joe Tedesco would weigh back in on this one also, Joe are you out there?

While waiting for Joe to chiime in, I'd like to add a piece of advice:

As long as you're replacing the old receptacles anyway, and unless you're going to throw the main breaker, use a piece of wire to short each circuit at every receptacle; don't assume anything!

On a similar job in a house, we found that the center bedroom's receptacles were being fed by three different circuits! The house was wired "up-n-down"; labeling the panel was an excercise in itself.

Edited for sentence structure. (Yes, it was worse before!)

[This message has been edited by Larry Fine (edited 08-29-2005).]

Larry would you mind if I paid for some insurance on you? I'll make me the beneficiary.

My advice, don't short out circuits to trip the overcurrent device. Definitely a bad work habit.

Larry, I am with George. Besides the obvious dangers, this can cause hidden conductor damage also, especially if the trip is not intantaneous.

Roger

[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 08-29-2005).]

I am here and await the response from the people you have criticized for attempting to use a rule discussed in a class they recently attended.

Please settle this issue with them, and let's see and hear the rest of the story.

Can I get in on that insurance too?

It would be much safer to load the circuit gradually to an overload to get the breaker to trip. Shorting it could damage you and the conductors.

Dave

It would be even safer to use a voltage detector, multimeter, wiggie, or other pratical and safe means, rather than to "short" the circuit. But as a pratical means when lockout tagout is not available, once you are sure a circuit is not live, intentional short circuit bolting can help you if somebody trys to energize the circuit while you are working on it. He gets the kaboom on his end. This last little tip is more for work on panels, transformers, switchgear and the like. Best bang for the buck is lockout-tagout.

Was this advice meant in jest? I would hope so. While I agree that someone who intentionally resets a breaker/closes a disconnect/whatever is not playing with a full deck, this borders on the criminally dangerous. A "kaboom on his end" can have very serious consequences.

IMHO, there would be no excuse for such a thing. (POCO workers take note, I'm not condemming the practice by utilities, the circumstances are very different.) Every electrician would likely have some method to help lockout a breaker, panel or disconnect on his truck, even if it's a piece of #10 solid twisted through the locking hole, with a handmade tag. Better to do that than risk serious injury/damage due to a bolted short.

And what happens if you forget to clear your short? You may be the one getting the kaboom.

Finally, the safest work practice is to treat everything as live, no matter what!


Best advice of all! Thumbs up on that!

edited html, then spellin

[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 08-30-2005).]

[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 08-30-2005).]

Joe,
I'm not criticizing anyone in the least. They're doing a terrific job with the information they have. I'm simply trying to use the money that could be saved here for more important issues, such as GFCI protection in kitchens etc.. I was simply hoping to get feedback on whether or not it was a safety issue. We'd never want to ignore these outlets if they are a safety issue.
Thanks, And by the way the best way is lock-out tag-out and then use a multimeter or like device to ensure the power is truly off.

You guys are absolutely correct, and I was certainly less than clear. I did not mean to use shorting to trip breakers, but just as a last assurance that the circuit is dead.

When I am about to handle wiring on a circuit I have locked out, or otherwise "should" be dead, I still touch each hot wire to ground or neutral before handling the bare ends.

I mentioned "As long as you're replacing the old receptacles anyway..." because the arc will discolor the receptacle when you discover the hard way you missed a breaker.

Posted by Mxslick "IMHO, there would be no excuse for such a thing. (POCO workers take note, I'm not condemming the practice by utilities, the circumstances are very different."

I sat across a desk from a job applicant once. He had some gnarly looking scars on his forarms. I asked him if it was electrical related. He then told me about how he and his buddy who died from it were servicing a transformer at our nearby naval base when a chief petty officer decided to cut the lock off and re energise the main, not knowing the circuit was still bieng worked on. Nowadays this sort of thing would be unheard of at any navy facility due to the high level of education the navy provides to it's personel, but it might elesewhere. My first instructor who himself was an ex salt used to tell us to wrap 2" chain around switchgear bus when servicing it just to prevent such an event from killing us. It was his words to give the "kaboom" to the idiot who cuts off the lock. Yesterday I read about a similar incident in Canada where a lock was cut on a main breaker for converyor belt at a large plant, which sent a maintenence worker into a chute and then into process machinery. They also thought the repair was completed without properly checking first. That one resulted in Jail for the guilty party.

I hadn't read Larry's post very well before my comment. I use a circuit tracer to locate circuits, but am also wary of multi-wire circuits. After using a non-contact tester as a second test, I also sometimes touch a nuetral to the box as a last measure. This is after taking shocks from neutrals in the past thinking all was off.

Dave

I have read so many threads regarding "people" unknowingly energizing a circuit that is being worked on or worse yet, energizing a locked out/tagged out circuit by defeating LOTO device... This made me think of a simple invention (If someone would like to take it to market, be my guest!) Or better yet - make a homemade version and protect yourselfs now! Here it is: Build a compact, LOUD! siren into a small box with an appropriatly sized transformer for the panel being worked on to power siren. The device would have three wires with clips on each lead. This device could be placed inside of the panel being worked on. Two clip leads could be attached to a circuit that is not being serviced for continuous power. The third (sensing) lead would be clipped onto the breaker screw that is being serviced. When someone energizes this now (monitored) circuit that is being worked on, the siren would scream thru the conduits allerting the electrician of imminent danger. A simple control circuit could also be added so that even if the person who, surprized by the now (screaming) energized circuit quickly turns off the circuit, the siren would continue to scream untill the sparky resets it! If we wanted to get real fancy, one could add a transmitter at the panel with a belt worn receiver/pager to allert the electrician who is too far away from the panel to hear the siren. Hell, why not even add a cheap small digital camera to photograph the suckers - No question of "who did it" then! Take care! J.-

Problem Sponge is that by the time you hear the alarm you're already dead or caught up in the piece of equipment you're working on.
Safety education is still the best medicine for the ill.

Bogger -
Well... I guess that would be true if you were hanging onto those bare wires 100% of the time the circuit was locked out. Many times, during my current apprenticeship for example, I am moving a ladder from junction to junction, along with other duties while I'm working the circuit. Plenty of "Non-contact time" to possibly let me know before I open that next box. I am surprized that no-one has built such a simple device yet... Thanks for the response. J.-

[This message has been edited by sponge (edited 09-01-2005).]

Sponge, you only need to be contacting the wires for less than one pecent of the time (a fraction of a second) to be scarred, crippled, or even history.

Roger

Maybe I didn't convey properly the intended purpose of said device. I am not purposing throwing away LOTO procedures or ignoring safety awareness training, common sense or trying to replace any safety procedures in any way. I am only imagining a simple "backup" safety device which would offer an additional layer of protection. Not to be solely counted on. Example scenario: The electrician has followed all of the common safety procedures before working a circuit. The breaker is locked and tagged. Alas, the negligent person who really needs to make thier photocopy, decides to be the office hero and actually defeats the LOTO devices/warnings and flips on the breaker. At this point, the electrician may OR -may not be- actually coming in contact with the ends of the energized wires. - YES, if the power is turned on at the same instant contact is made with the bare conductors, we all know what happens. This device could not offer any protection at that moment. But, if I were the electrician who happened -not- to be touching the wires at that exact time of energization, it sure would be nice to have somthing like a "last chance" receiver/pager alerting me OR a custom pitched siren screaming at me, while I was still moving my ladder to the next box etc. - before I reach up and grab those hot wires. Any "last stop" ADDITIONAL layer of protection to possibly save my life would be A-OK with me. I guess I could see it like the advent of side impact airbags. Just another layer of design/safety devices to hopefully keep us alive. - Sorry, did not mean to hijack this thread. J-

[This message has been edited by sponge (edited 09-01-2005).]

Where else could a discussion between a guy named Booger and a guy named Sponge not seem ironic?

I believe your siren would probably spook the worker into getting shocked, Sponge. Just a thought.

LOL! That was a good one! -- Even though I think the name is pronounced more like BOUger, which carries a different flavor of sorts... Seriously though, I appreciate ALL the responses. I just have not heard any response yet that really demonstraits this idea as being a bad one. As said in my previous posts, there is a definate varying time period where the sparky would not be touching the bare exposed conductors during the "unknown" energization time frame. I am betting that roughly 75% of the time spent working MOST circuits, that no bare wire contact is being made - There could be several possible instances in that time frame where, circuit has been powered up and contact/shock has not -YET- occured. The warning could sound during those critical times. -- I kind of get the feeling here that we have "enough" safety procedures with our trade and that this would be just another safety device that an electrician would -maybe- reluctently use at best. Perhaps we should not try to improve things too much and just learn to take our shocking experiances like a real lectrician... -J ---- Airbags!!! We dont need no stinkin airbags! (Chevrolet 1970 safety dept. meeting) ----

[This message has been edited by sponge (edited 09-05-2005).]

[This message has been edited by sponge (edited 09-05-2005).]

If someone hooked a huge siren to a dead breaker feeding a circuit that I was working on, and then turned that breaker on, three events would occur:

1. I would jump, startled, and get zapped.
2. I would get up and hammer that siren into little bitty pieces.
3. I would find the guy that thought it up.

Kidding aside, I believe the spooking-into-the-danger factor is just too great, bud.

George - You are stuck on the siren option... How about a gently pre-recorded message sounding from your wireless device on your hip saying... Excuse me george? Your about to get your butt blasted off that ladder! -J

Possibly while playing a recording at the panel. Something calm and understated, for example "Please be aware that you have intentionally endangered the individual working on this circuit. You have been photographed, and this evidence will be presented to the police."

-Jon

-Absolutely! Integrate it all into one working package - Electronics in general, dont cost much today. Why not take advantage of any obvious edge we have available. -J

"Please be aware that you have intentionally endangered the individual working on this circuit. You have been photographed, and this evidence will be presented to the police."

... and Pedro says "que"

Somebody want to tell me how to lock out a 1930s Pringle switch rated 800 amps feeding an air handling motor control center. It was opened and tagged out but the drywall guys screw gun stopped working so he made his way to the electric room and closed the tagged switch. He must have thought it was dammed nice of us to label the switch he needed to close. I chased that bastard for ten blocks and he flat out ran me. I nearly had him twice but power by fear cut in and he put on some extra speed. Maybe it was the conduit bender I was carrying that slowed me down. I have to say that I'm glad he out ran me or I would be doing hard time. While I was chasing him someone else broke every piece of glass and exposed plastic on his car. None of that kept us from first calling the ambulance for our badly burned brother electrician and several guys were rendering aid while I went to secure the circuit. When I found that drywall guy still throwing breakers I just lost it. He was closing everything that was tagged out.

Ever since that incident I fault out any circuit I'm working on once I have locked it out and tagged it out.
--
Tom Horne

IMHO: 1) shorting a live circuit to find the breaker is plain dumb bordering on insane.
2) shorting a _dead_ circuit without tagging it is borderline dumb. If there is a significant risk of the short causing problems at the switchgear, then shorting a dead circuit without tagging is negligent, possibly criminally negligent.
3) shorting a repeatedly _tested_ dead circuit as a final check is pretty reasonable
4) bolting to ground a _dead_, clearly _locked and tagged_ high energy circuit is intelligent self preservation

Note that the latter introduces its own safety hazard; what happens if _you_ forget to remove your own intentional ground connection? I'd be tempted to introduce an additional lock, with the key attached to the ground connection, so that the circuit could not be re-energized without confirmation that the ground connection has been removed.

-Jon

I'm just curious. How many of you have LOTO energy sources, confirmed that circuit is dead and then later found out you had locked out the wrong energy source. I have seen this happen a number of times. When you lock out a circuit, please be sure it is the correct one. If the wrong one is locked out and you have short circuited the circuit where you are working on it. Even with siren in place you won't hear anything other than the kaboooom on other end.

quote" When you lock out a circuit, please be sure it is the correct one. If the wrong one is locked out and you have short circuited the circuit where you are working on it. Even with siren in place you won't hear anything other than the kaboooom on other end."

Actually if you were to try to do it as stated above, the "kaboom" will be in your hands right where you are. If you locked out the wrong circuit, obviously, you will now be shorting out a live circuit. Hope it isn't much above 120 v at 20 amps if you do this mistake.

Take a look here:
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum16/HTML/000239.html


Edited to add:


Rated circuit ampacity won't make you safer in that case. It is the available short circuit current and impedance of the system wiring that makes a difference. I have personally witnessed the effects of accidental shorts on so-called 120/20 circuits in cinemas served by a nearby network transformer..the resulting arc flash would have caused serious injury to anyone nearby. The devices in question were totally destroyed. Those facilities all had "Series Rated" panels at all locations.

To twist a common phrase here, "It's not the size of the dog, but the size of the bark."

[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 09-21-2005).]

Having other trades -- typically rockers -- hunting for line power because we need to kill some circuits is the root problem.

On my jobs I always specifically attend to the other guy's power situation. Before I kill circuits I provide alternate sources -- even if it means lending cords. Usually all that is needed is to point out alternate power.

Stopping the rocker is as upsetting to him as his counter action is to us. In fact most rockers would regard it as us or them.

That is the mentality behind all of these terribly idiotic cut locks.

Lock-outs should have a legend tag warning of criminal liabilty for harm inflicted due to unlawful removal.

Really cool how the topic derived from a small nec question to an OSHA debate:-)