ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
ShoutChat
Recent Posts
Safety at heights?
by gfretwell - 04/23/24 03:03 PM
Old low volt E10 sockets - supplier or alternative
by gfretwell - 04/21/24 11:20 AM
Do we need grounding?
by gfretwell - 04/06/24 08:32 PM
UL 508A SPACING
by tortuga - 03/30/24 07:39 PM
Increasing demand factors in residential
by tortuga - 03/28/24 05:57 PM
New in the Gallery:
This is a new one
This is a new one
by timmp, September 24
Few pics I found
Few pics I found
by timmp, August 15
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 516 guests, and 17 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
I
Moderator
By the way I agree with Gregtaylor that article 520 covers the auditorium of a movie theater and 520.5(A) prohibits NM for general fixed use lighting and power but take a look at the exception.

Quote
520.5(A)Exception: Fixed wiring methods shall be as provided in Article 640 for audio signal processing, amplification, and reproduction equipment, in Article 800 for communication circuits, in Article 725 for Class 2 and Class 3 remote-control and signaling circuits, and in Article 760 for fire alarm circuits.

Notice that the reference to article 725 are only for remote-control and signaling circuits.

What John C is installing is not either remote-control or signaling circuits, it is power limited wiring.

I think the NM has to go.

Bob


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
Stay up to Code with the Latest NEC:


>> 2023 NEC & Related Reference & Exam Prep
2023 NEC & Related Reference & Study Guides

Pass Your Exam the FIRST TIME with the Latest NEC & Exam Prep

>> 2020 NEC & Related Reference & Study Guides
 

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
I
Moderator
Greg.

Quote
Hi,
iwire- you said: "Class 2 and 3 circuits can be wired with any method listed in Chapter 3 NM, MC, EMT, etc."
are you sure about that?

Read the code sections I posted, what do you think 725.52(A) tells us?

IMO it tells us class 2 and 3 circuits can be wired like class 1 circuits.

Then 725.25 tells us class 1 circuits shall be wired in accordance with article 300 in a chapter 3 wiring method.

Chapter 3 wiring methods are the typical methods we use NM, MC, AC, EMT, RMC, etc.

Bob


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 494
M
Member
Hi,
Iwire-I beleive it is disallowed in other sections...as pointed out in this post..

second is it even appropriate?

-regards

greg

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
I
Moderator
Greg

Quote
Hi,
Iwire-I beleive it is disallowed in other sections...as pointed out in this post..

It is not 'disallowed' it is permitted per 725.52(A) if you do not want to follow 725.52(A) you can choose to follow 725.52(B).

Quote
725.52 Wiring Methods and Materials on Load Side of the Class 2 or Class 3 Power Source.

Class 2 and Class 3 circuits on the load side of the power source shall be permitted to be installed using wiring methods and materials in accordance with either 725.52(A) or (B).

If you chose to use 725.52(B) then, and only then do you need to look at 725.71 at all.

So in your opinion I can not run class 2 or 3 circuits in EMT or MC? (Both are chapter 3 wiring methods)

That would be a real problem in a commercial and industrial jobs. [Linked Image]

Bob

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 03-15-2005).]


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 494
M
Member
Hi,
bob-no, i agree with you there..anything BUT NM-are the proper methods..but i do not think that nm cable CAN be used in ANY place of assembly.

i am chewing on this for my rebuttal...i will come back to this after i find the nail for your coffin! (just kidding)

very interesting though!

if your right i will buy you a coke!

-regards

greg

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
I
Moderator
Greg I think the NM must be removed from the theater auditorium, as I said a few posts back.

My argument was about this statement that George made.

Quote
NM cable is not acceptable for a Class 2 circuit per 725.52.

I believe that is incorrect.

Have a great day. [Linked Image]

Bob


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 494
M
Member
BOB-ok i am sorry that i missed that...i thought thats what you said but i couldnt find it!

it is obvious you know your beans!

thanks for the comments..

-regards

greg

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
E
e57 Offline
Member
Bob , this is another one of those circular code dealy thing a ma gigs. Let's see if I can see past my bottle of Chimay to keep this straight in my own mind. (You know I hate romex....) Anyway, let the code circle begin here:
Quote
411.4 Locations Not Permitted.
Lighting systems operating at 30 volts or less shall not be installed (1) where concealed or extended through a building wall, unless using a wiring method specified in Chapter 3, or (2) within 3.0 m (10 ft) of pools, spas, fountains, or similar locations, except as permitted by Article 680.
The installation requirements of 411.4 recognize that shock and fire hazards still exist, even with low-voltage systems.
So now we're back in chapter 3 wiring methods.... Forget anything in chapter 7 now. As it sounds like it is concealed it's limited to chapter 3 now. 394.12 is also in chapter 3. You wouldn't install K&T? How 'bout Smurf tube? Well, you could if it were encased in 2" of concrete... Can you do that with romex? No! So, this all comes down to fire ratings of wiring methods and finish. (The way I see it.) This is some commentary following 520.4(C)
Quote
Theaters and similar buildings are usually required to be of fire-rated construction, as determined by applicable building codes; therefore, the fixed wiring methods are limited. See 518.4 for the requirements on wiring methods.
The exception to the requirements for metal-enclosed, or concrete-enclosed, fixed wiring permits the installation of communications circuits, Class 2 and Class 3 remote-control and signaling circuits, sound-reproduction wiring, and fire alarm circuits using wiring methods from the respective articles covering these systems in Chapters 7 and 8. Where portability, flexibility, and adjustments are necessary for portable switchboards, stage lighting, and special effects, suitable cords and cables are permitted. In accordance with 520.5(C), Type NM cable, Type AC cable, ENT, and RNC are permitted as the wiring method in buildings or portions of buildings that are not required to be of fire-rated construction.
Now even if we allow ourselves to think about chapter 7, we end up in 725.71 again. If you have the handbook version of the the 2002, or 1999 NEC both have a whole lotta mumbo jombo 'bout "Flame propagation" and the "Vertical flame testing procedures", smoke production, bla, bla, bla. It's darn clear they intended to limit smoke producing and flame travel inherent wiring methods.

Back to NM... (As we were limited to chapter 3 in 411 for this class 2 lighting purpose, although there are many other materials in that chapter, but MN is in question here.) The same thing happens, Fire ratings, smoke, and flame travel, etc. the commentary following 334.10 is as follows:
Quote
A well-established means of codifying fire protection and fire safety requirements is to classify buildings by types of construction, based on materials used for the structural elements and the degree of fire resistance afforded by each element. The five fundamental construction types used by the model building codes are Type I (fire resistive), Type II (noncombustible), Type III (combination of combustible and noncombustible), Type IV (heavy timber), and Type V (wood frame). Types I and II basically require all structural elements to be noncombustible, whereas Types III, IV, and V allow some or all of the structural elements to be combustible (wood).
The selection of building construction types is regulated by the building code, based on the occupancy, height, and area of the building. The local code official or the architect for a building project can be consulted to determine the minimum allowable (permitted) construction type for the building under consideration. When a building of a selected height (in feet or stories above grade) and area is permitted to be built of combustible construction (i.e., Types III, IV, or V), the installation of nonmetallic sheathed cable is permitted. The common areas (corridors) and incidental and subordinate uses (laundry rooms, lounge rooms, etc.) that serve a multifamily dwelling occupancy are also considered part of the multifamily occupancy, thereby allowing the use of nonmetallic sheathed cable in those areas.
If a building is to be of noncombustible construction (i.e., Type I or II) by the owner's choice, even though the building code would permit combustible construction, the building is allowed to be wired with nonmetallic sheathed cable. In such an instance, nonmetallic sheathed cable may be installed in the noncombustible building because the Code would have permitted the building to be of combustible construction.
Annex E provides charts and other explanatory information to assist the user in understanding and categorizing the exact types of construction under consideration. A table to cross reference building types to the various building code types of construction is provided in Annex E also.
Then theres 334.12 uses not permitted... "(4)In theaters and similar locations, except where permitted in 518.4." 518.4, gets you again sayin' only in
Quote
(B) Nonrated Construction. Nonmetallic-sheathed cable, Type AC cable, electrical nonmetallic tubing, and rigid nonmetallic conduit shall be permitted to be installed in those buildings or portions thereof that are not required to be of fire-rated construction by the applicable building code.
FPN:Fire-rated construction is the fire-resistive classification used in building codes.
Anyway it seems pretty clear they dont want any more plastic, smoke producing, flame travel in this fire rated area.


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
E
e57 Offline
Member
Sorry Bob, I thought you were defending NM... And it took me that long to rant.


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5