ECN Forum Forums Code Related Discussion NEC & other Code issues Listed or not Listed

George that was sly. I was doing as Russ said and just thinking along the lines of (Third Party). I should have included your second sentence when I quoted you The reality is that there are items that are not "asked for" to be listed in the NEC, but are required to be listed.

I just have a problem when inspectors become robots to the word "listed". I have wondered many times (and have said this same thing on forums before) when the knowledge, experience, and education of an inspector took a back seat to a testing agency. With the writen word of the NFPA documents and standards, applicable building codes, along with the above mentioned knowledge, experience, and education, I wouldn't think approving an item should be all that scary to an inspector.

Roger



[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 12-24-2004).]

I don't know what it is like everywhere but here in SW Fla the inspectors barely have time to sign the permits. They certainly don't have time to properly evaluate a non-listed piece of equipment. When I was a state inspector I did have all the time I needed and a I did get a chance to approve things that weren't strictly "code". My policy was I had to see the hazard before I would fail something. In most cases the code really makes sense.

Why have inspectors started depending so much on listing of products?

LITIGATION

BTW - a lot of the standards for equipment and products that we use are developed by UL and other agencys and are used by the respective testing labs, hence the confusion of saying UL listed.

Pierre

[This message has been edited by PCBelarge (edited 12-26-2004).]

Greg,

What about those little metal RX staples? Are they UL Listed? Does everyone use them? I don't believe that there is a UL listing for those staples, yet everyone does use them.

Harold

The good news... everything doesn't have to be listed. But, (there is always a BUT)... equipment used in the completed installation must be "approved" and appropriate.

The last line of the FPN, "Suitability of equipment may be evidenced by listing or labeling." is the kicker.

The 2002 Handbook gives some guidance for inspectors.

I agree with shortcircuit, 90.4 gives the AHJ some latitude. 90.7 also provides for the AHJ to look not only at listing but other data that may indicate that the equipment is acceptable for the intended application. Also,90.7 clearly states that "specific items of equipment and materials" required by the code must be suitable. Not everything in the code is specified, so, it's the AHJ that gets to decide if equipment is suitable if it is not specified by the code. (e.g., staples)

I believe the intent of 110.2 and 110.3 is to ensure that equipment is designed for the application. If it doesn't look right, don't approve it until you do a little more research.

Almost forgot, Article 100 defines "approved."
The AHJ is da' judge. Here comes da' judge... here comes da' judge

[This message has been edited by safetygem (edited 12-27-2004).]

Harold, I am not sure any support hardware is actually required to be listed. (as noted with the Unistrut example above)
I do know I got the Carlon guy to admit the RNMC straps were *not* UV protected (nor do they seem to have a listing mark on them)

The Halex 1/2" EMT "one holers" do have the mark. I am guessing the older technology got listed some time in the past (maybe for a government bid) and the listing still stands.

I use some common sense on these things. Being listed would not keep them from being improperly installed and an unconventional strapping method might be superior in some situation. The operative word is "secured".
BTW I am not thrilled with Tywraps. In an unthreatening situation like simply securing wires out of harm's way, in a wall cavity, all other things being safe, until it is closed up, I will tolerate them, but I am not going to live with them in exposed work. They fail too soon in my experience.
Black ones are better than white ones but both fail pretty quickly if the sun hits them.