ECN Forum
Posted By: George Little Listed or not Listed - 12/23/04 09:51 PM
The code does not require anything to be UL Listed. There are several instances where the code ask for something to be listed, meaning looked at by a recognized testing organization and having it meet a Standard usually established by UL. My question is: would you install a piece of equipment, wiring method, luminaire or anything else that was not "Listed"?
Posted By: iwire Re: Listed or not Listed - 12/23/04 10:11 PM
I do all the time, unistrut and it's hardware. [Linked Image] But I doubt that is what you mean

Luminaire, panel etc, no I doubt that would be acceptable around here.

We have had custom fixtures made but they where made at a shop that can UL list the fixture.

I don't believe the pad mount transformers we install are UL listed.

George you always have interesting questions. [Linked Image]

Bob
Posted By: shortcircuit Re: Listed or not Listed - 12/23/04 11:40 PM
90.4 Gives the authority having jurisdiction the responsiblity for deciding whether to approve the use of equipment and materials used.(listed or not)

Yes, I would install equipment and materials that are not listed...as long as I feel it is safe. If there is a question about equipment or materials I may use,I will ask the Inspector for his approval.

shortcircuit
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Listed or not Listed - 12/24/04 03:36 AM
If you ask this question on the Fla IAEI BB they will come down your throat. These guys are more adament than I am about listing. They are the ones who beat me up for thinking the screw lug on the side of a pool ladder cup was OK if properly made up.
Posted By: George Little Re: Listed or not Listed - 12/24/04 04:06 AM
Good thing I behaved myself during the Jubilee, don't need the brothers from the bikini state mad at me. Have a nice Holiday if you haven't already and lets have a good and healthy next year.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Listed or not Listed - 12/24/04 04:32 AM
Actually I think this is really the NEC holiday when the code goes on vacation. We are safe all year, then we open up that box of nasty lights and put good sense on hold.
In GFCI we trust ;-)

[This message has been edited by gfretwell (edited 12-23-2004).]
Posted By: Roger Re: Listed or not Listed - 12/24/04 12:59 PM
George,
Quote
The code does not require anything to be UL Listed.
actually it does, for example look at 35x.6 through 362.6 conduit articles.

I agree with the jest of your post though and think many inspectors now use listings as a crutch.

I have no problem say with rewiring (rebuilding) antique (unlisted) fixtures for use.

Happy and safe Holiday wishes!

Roger

[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 12-24-2004).]
Posted By: George Little Re: Listed or not Listed - 12/24/04 02:55 PM
Roger- Look again. Articles you referenced only require that the products be "Listed" not UL Listed. There are possibilities, UL, ETL, Factory Mutual, CSA and MET to mention a few. There are no requirements that anything be UL Listed And another thing that bothers me is the fact that Article 500 quite often says that a product or piece of equipment shall be "Approved" and it makes no reference to a need for any Listing. Puts the onus on the Inspector to review a product for approval or acceptability without knowing how it will perform.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Listed or not Listed - 12/24/04 03:58 PM
I try to be careful not to say "U/L" listed, simply listed. Listing indeed is a "crutch" or a "tool" depending on who you talk to. It establishes a minimum stanndard of performance. In an industry that is trying desperately to establish some standards I welcome it. We still have 90-4 to "approve" unlisted items but I think they should substantially meet the same standard as a listed item.
Electrical contractors should appreciate a uniform electrical standard so they are not building a different installation depending on city/county lines and what Bubba the inspector is feeling like today.
Posted By: russ m Re: Listed or not Listed - 12/24/04 10:25 PM
I think even those that know listings are done by more NRTLs than UL seem to have say UL, to many so they understand what we're talking about.
Next time just for fun I'm going to ask if somthing is MET listed, or even more fun NRTL listed.
Posted By: Roger Re: Listed or not Listed - 12/25/04 01:19 AM
George that was sly. [Linked Image] I was doing as Russ said and just thinking along the lines of (Third Party). I should have included your second sentence when I quoted you
Quote
There are several instances where the code ask for something to be listed
The reality is that there are items that are not "asked for" to be listed in the NEC, but are required to be listed.

I just have a problem when inspectors become robots to the word "listed". I have wondered many times (and have said this same thing on forums before) when the knowledge, experience, and education of an inspector took a back seat to a testing agency. With the writen word of the NFPA documents and standards, applicable building codes, along with the above mentioned knowledge, experience, and education, I wouldn't think approving an item should be all that scary to an inspector.

Roger



[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 12-24-2004).]
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Listed or not Listed - 12/25/04 04:25 AM
I don't know what it is like everywhere but here in SW Fla the inspectors barely have time to sign the permits. They certainly don't have time to properly evaluate a non-listed piece of equipment. When I was a state inspector I did have all the time I needed and a I did get a chance to approve things that weren't strictly "code". My policy was I had to see the hazard before I would fail something. In most cases the code really makes sense.
Posted By: PCBelarge Re: Listed or not Listed - 12/26/04 02:14 PM
Why have inspectors started depending so much on listing of products?

LITIGATION

BTW - a lot of the standards for equipment and products that we use are developed by UL and other agencys and are used by the respective testing labs, hence the confusion of saying UL listed.

Pierre

[This message has been edited by PCBelarge (edited 12-26-2004).]
Posted By: harold endean Re: Listed or not Listed - 12/27/04 01:47 AM
Greg,

What about those little metal RX staples? Are they UL Listed? Does everyone use them? I don't believe that there is a UL listing for those staples, yet everyone does use them.

Harold
Posted By: safetygem Re: Listed or not Listed - 12/27/04 04:09 PM
The good news... everything doesn't have to be listed. But, (there is always a BUT)... equipment used in the completed installation must be "approved" and appropriate.
Quote
110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.
(A) Examination. In judging equipment, considerations such as the following shall be evaluated:
(1) Suitability for installation and use in conformity with the provisions of this Code
FPN:Suitability of equipment use may be identified by a description marked on or provided with a product to identify the suitability of the product for a specific purpose, environment, or application. Suitability of equipment may be evidenced by listing or labeling.

The last line of the FPN, "Suitability of equipment may be evidenced by listing or labeling." is the kicker.

The 2002 Handbook gives some guidance for inspectors.
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Approval of equipment is the responsibility of the electrical inspection authority, and many such approvals are based on tests and listings of testing laboratories.

I agree with shortcircuit, 90.4 gives the AHJ some latitude. 90.7 also provides for the AHJ to look not only at listing but other data that may indicate that the equipment is acceptable for the intended application. Also,90.7 clearly states that "specific items of equipment and materials" required by the code must be suitable. Not everything in the code is specified, so, it's the AHJ that gets to decide if equipment is suitable if it is not specified by the code. (e.g., staples)

I believe the intent of 110.2 and 110.3 is to ensure that equipment is designed for the application. If it doesn't look right, don't approve it until you do a little more research. [Linked Image]

Almost forgot, Article 100 defines "approved."
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Approved. Acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction.
The AHJ is da' judge. Here comes da' judge... here comes da' judge [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by safetygem (edited 12-27-2004).]
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Listed or not Listed - 12/27/04 07:49 PM
Harold, I am not sure any support hardware is actually required to be listed. (as noted with the Unistrut example above)
I do know I got the Carlon guy to admit the RNMC straps were *not* UV protected (nor do they seem to have a listing mark on them)

The Halex 1/2" EMT "one holers" do have the mark. I am guessing the older technology got listed some time in the past (maybe for a government bid) and the listing still stands.

I use some common sense on these things. Being listed would not keep them from being improperly installed and an unconventional strapping method might be superior in some situation. The operative word is "secured".
BTW I am not thrilled with Tywraps. In an unthreatening situation like simply securing wires out of harm's way, in a wall cavity, all other things being safe, until it is closed up, I will tolerate them, but I am not going to live with them in exposed work. They fail too soon in my experience.
Black ones are better than white ones but both fail pretty quickly if the sun hits them.
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