ECN Forum Forums Code Related Discussion NEC & other Code issues Teaching the NEC and Electrical Safdety, It is Not Easy!!

ga.sparky56

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Hey Sparky:

Please define "naked king doctrines" and their relationship to the NEC.

Thanks Joe.....

I think if the "spirit" of the code is always considered in regard to the "letter" of the code, we will have been successful in our teaching and application.

I have always seemed to learn better when the concept is presented along with the doctrine, hence a "common sense" is formed.

I have not had the privlege to sit in one of your classes but I have read many of your explanations over the years and I must say you are among the best when it comes to teaching the NEC. No "suck-up" intended, just stating the facts.
Thanks,
Dave

Consider me as the little boy Joe, who pointed out the king had no clothes in the old fable.

I would venture there are more that wear "electrican,inspector,ahj" shoes in the trade than do not as EC's, or at least the scales tip in light of the rural contingent.

So we are the students as well as the teachers, and our liveyhood depends on our ability to diplomatically present the NEC's spirit and intent.

Should we do this poorly, we will eat poorly also, a fair contrast to those who can red tag with impunity right or simply be dealt a poor evaluation.

Believe me, you have nothing short of the luxury of blowing off what you consider extranious questions, we do not.

Yeah teaching is tough! and the NEC isn't out to help any of us if one needs to reaserch 4 CMP's back for rationale.





[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 02-23-2003).]

Here is my 2 cents for what it is worth. I was in the business for 25 years and in my own business for 15 of those years. Now I work as an inspector and when I inspect, I treat each and every contractor with the respect that I wanted when I was a contractor. I look at each job before I even look to see who did the work. If it is right I pass the job. If wrong, I tell them that it has to be fixed. No big deal, just fix it and let's move on to the next job. If I make a decision, and the contractor doesn't like it, I will listen to the contractor. If he make a good and valid point and I see his way, then I will change my decision. If it was a homeowner, I will try to help them to get through the job if it is wrong.

i work as my own bussiness for 10 years now in usa ( plus 5 years in france before that ) and what russel did bring up good point and i use the nec book alot to explaint to the comusters and GC also but what i do is keep the commuation line open so we can advoid any misunderstanding reguarding with nec or other codes as requires and i deal with my inspecter and belive or not we both learn something new all time ditto with homeowners some of them did not know about it but this area i feel somecase it can be overtaking and i use the ENC forurms to get the general point but if i have a question i will post it here and i am jugging both 99 and 02 codes depend on the area and i try to stay the most recent code change and just try to be fair with everyone around here. one of my goal is good open commuations . that way the job can be done quick and effect manner per nec codes and other codes as required

merci marc

Sparky, you are right I should exercise more diplomacy, but you made a strong statement and should expect someone will strongly disagree, and yes there are some things that seem arbitrary, 6 disconnects, no more then 42 circuits in a panel etc.

I just take exception to your statement that "much of the NEC is without a shred of rationale"

For the size of the code I think that there is not to many examples of Articles with out rationale.

The inspectors that I have had dealings with apply commonsense but if you are talking about a code class as Joe was talking about, it must be by the letter or he sends students off with misinformation.

I defiantly do not consider myself an 'instructor' just someone that speaks his mind, sometimes getting myself into trouble.

Bob

Once upon a time there was a new bride that was hosting her first Christmas dinner for her husband's family. As tradition was, she was preparing a goose to be cooked in a large roasting pan. As her mother-in-law was watching and helping with other parts of the meal, she asked her new daughter-in-law why she had cut the neck of the goose off. Her reply was, "This is the way my grandmother taught my mother and this is the way my mother taught me, so I have always done it this way". With that, the mother-in-law excused herself and went to the other room to ask the grandmother why she had always cut the neck of the goose off.
The grandmother replied, "Oh, that's because my old roasting pan was so small that I never could get the whole bird to fit, so I just cut it off!"

Reminds me of time honored traditions such as;
As long as the conduit is less than 24" long, it's a nipple, and you can put as many wires in it that will fit.
And;
If it's a nipple, you don't have to support it.
Or, how about;
As long as you can get the wires pushed back far enough for the receptacle to fit, you're fine.
And;
Let's use a trough! We can make all the wire nut connections in it and there will be plenty of room the to get all of the wires to all of the panels.

Yes, trying to teach the code to "experienced" electricians can be an up-hill battle at times. We not only need to overcome terminology differences, but also tradition. Yes, the code is important to understand and comprehend. Often times students are on the offensive and are gaurding their knowledge. Often times instructors are on the defensive trying not to "quote the code" but to still trying to get the point across and accepted.
The only sure thing is that the code is going to change every three years. Sometimes the changes make sense, sometimes they are repealed later. The good thing about the whole process is that you and I live in safer structures today and the quality of workmanship has increased throughout.

Just my two cents,
Dave

All previous comments are well thought out and appreciated ....

Another question now ... what would we do without the NEC?

Do most of you have the National Electrical Code Handbook?

You may want to read the commentary when answers are needed as to what a rule means.

Most of the commentary comes from the actual substantiation included with the proposals or comments that were sent in to the code making panel.

Um, may I ask a question here? (timid pa dutch fellow in the back kind of half raising his hand)

Being here to learn, and I have, alot, My question is:
Why must the code be written in "philadelphia lawyer"?

Wouldn't a lot of these confusions be avoided if the code was written in english in the first place?

TW

ps, please accept my apology if this is considered a threadjack.

Trainwire:

Give an example that will help to support your comments.

How would you rewrite (In English) Section 210.8, for one example?

or

The entire Article 630 for Welders??

Have you attended any formal classes on the NEC, or seminars, and are you a member of some organization that includes the NEC in their discussions?