ECN Forum Forums Code Related Discussion NEC & other Code issues New Definition of "Qualified Person"

Sparky,
Where does it say in the scope of the NEC that safety in the workplace or qualifications of workers installing electrical equipment is part of the NEC. It came about as a building standard because building fires were being started by improper installations, not because people were getting electrocuted. How many businesses in the 1890s were concerned about worker safety? The main concern, from an insurance and business aspect, was loss of property and revenue. Read the history of the IBEW and the fatalities of linemen in the early years. Employers claimed the deaths were due to employee error and just got another lineman. The union was influential in safety and skill training that brought those numbers down. Safety has also been improving due to OSHA and civil prosecution of negligent and abusive employers.

Unless the NFPA rewords the scope of the NEC, requiring any training to meet a definition of qualified is outside the scope.

Have you ever read NFPA 70E? This document was created by NFPA at the request of OSHA because OSHA realized the NEC was not applicable to workplace safety. The OSHA Safety Related Work Practices really originated from an NFPA standard. As a matter of fact, the latest revision of 70E is not yet adopted into OSHA, but to be in compliance with OSHA's general duty clause, an employer must be in compliance with the latest 70E. If the AHJ wants to get involved with workplace safety, let it adopt NFPA 70E and learn another standard in its entirety, instead of enforcing a general definition that is out of place in a building standard.

Gerald;
One would think that an organization dedicated to a "National Electrical Code" all these years,would in some manner advocate , acknowledge, or otherwise condone an electrical license.
Call me idealistic, but I think the two could compliment each other.
One would think that at least ONE of the dozens of organizations that have a ladle in the soup would have stirred this up by now.

As far as unions, my grandparents fought from their sweat shops for them. They marched on Washington long before it was popular, so if I sound a little radical here, it's hereditary. And yes they have done some good. But I don't think those at their inception would like the looks of them now, so let's not even get started down that road...

Despite being opinionated here, I am humble enough to admit my knowledge is limited as to the ongoings of the bureaucracy above me.
I hope those involved have the wisdom, and maybe a little dirt under thier nails, to relate decisions made to the real end result, not twisted statistics collected or presented in a bias manner.
I can only speak for those like myself, at the bottom of this giant managemental triangle , we've seen a lot like this come down the pike, this won't work for a lot of us.
In a certain sense, this is much like those unfunded federal mandates that every municipality will simply add to their personnel policy, and ignore.

I also do not know this 70E, but it has been proven that even I , can be educated.

Sparky,
Don't feel bad about being unfamiliar with 70E. Few electricians are. Only those who work for companies large enough to afford a class on "1910-331,332,333,334,335, for the low introductory $ 795" have heard of it. When OSHA started writing electrical regulations for employee safety in the workplace they wanted to use consensus standards that were already existing. Doesn't sound like our government huh? They used the NEC for requirements to make the environment safe from an electrical standpoint. But for hot work they realized the Code did not actually address hot work practices. Also, the installation requirements of the Code only indirectly protect people by having the equipment not self-destructing. The safety levels of the Code are okay for equipment, but no overcurrent protective device will keep a person from being electrocuted.

That is where 70E comes in. OSHA requested NFPA (assuming them to already be the experts) to give OSHA a document it could more directly adopt for OSHA standards. 70E is smaller than the average EC&M magazine. I do not know of an outlet for you to purchase one except from tne NFPA. Even the AVO bookstore doesn't list them on their website www.avointl.com. I think they will sell it if someone asks for one, because they have them for some of their courses. It is around $30 from NFPA. http://www.necdirect.org/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/STORE/PAGES/70E-00.htm?L+necnonmembers+qgfl1429 High price for its size, but if you follow it you will be in compliance with the OSHA requirements.

I believe NFPA 70 (the Code) and NFPA 70E taken separately works well. The NEC should not duplicate 70E requirements because the scope of the two standards are different.

[This message has been edited by gpowellpec (edited 02-24-2001).]

Bill,
Since Mike Holt has given us the NEC online, maybe you can persuade the NFPA to give us 70E online.

Gerald,
thank you for the link. $30 or so is something any sparky can cough up, and a small $ to pay for such education. My check's in the mail.

Most of the trade out here in the sticks are one/two man shows, mom & pop biz , got my kid as an apprentice deals. This is despite some of the glorified ad's and answering services that present us as world leaders in the trade.

My point is that there is a trickle down effect that leaves a lot of us either out of the loop , or easily able to ignore what the rest of the world is doing.

Many of us , unable to bid on big jobs, say when a shopping mall is being built, have a "can't beat'em , join 'em" policy. To be honest, the larger jobs like that are the only time we are exposed to any level of saftey in practice. My last experience was with an IBEW "salt" or "stewart", i'm not sure what his title was. He worked right along with us, and tried to apply current saftey standards as we went along. One has to imagine here, field electricians with 20-30 yrs experience being exposed to these standards, to an applicable degree, for the first time. If anything else, he was patient.

...

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 02-25-2001).]

Gerald,

Thanks, I took your suggestion and wrote a letter. I'll keep you all posted. Keep your fingers crossed.

See thread on NFPA 70E

Bill

Time for an Update. I see where the 2005 NEC will include a new fine print note.