ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area Question

Psss, Pss, I didn't tell ya this, but if you run the hot and neutral on the travelers. Then run both commons to the light, the three way works with 3 wires. Now just tap off the travelers for your receptacle.
But you didn't hear it from me

[This message has been edited by russ m (edited 01-30-2004).]

sure russ, just break that little tab inbettween the hot terminals of the receptacle.... so what code (here) would be broken ??

~S~

From the house to the barn you use only 2 wires, white and black. Then you install X10 switch in the house and X10 switch in the barn. have your recpt. in the barn. easy way to go.

Russ, you're a genious. I read this post last night and was trying to get my brother to figure it out at break today. He had heard this puzzler about six months ago and had figured it out, but since forgot. We never did figure it out before it was time to get back to work.

Actually, the whole thing came up when the carpenter was telling us about the "California Patch" job he had done on the abandoned (wire and pipe was removed) light box in the ceiling. You cut one side of the drywall the size of the hole, and have the paper on the other side over sized. Then mud, sssssspppppppllllllluuuhhhhh and smooth.

Thank you California. What else has California given us?

LK what is an x-10 device?

Russ,
With your way, if I throw one switch,the lights go off, and the breaker trips. How can you say "run the hot and neutral on the travellers"? Are they still connected to the 3-way? If they are, ZAP. If they are disconnected, then how does it switch? Like I said, the California hook-up uses the grounding conductor for the neutral, then uses the white wire to connect the two commons together. One traveller is the switched leg, the other is hot.

Earl

X10 Devices work on power line frequency control, They allow control functions at remote locations. These devices are in stock at most Box stores. You can get information on the verious uses at http://www.x10.com/automation/product_modules_switches.htm We have been using them for years, to solve just the problem described in this post.

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 01-31-2004).]

But what about the light on the house? You'd need four wires to get that other common back to the house.

But if the original three-way was wired correctly to start with, you'd already have four wires.

Earl, I didn't quite follow you're way with four wires. would it still operate like a 3-way giving you full function from both sides?

Russ's way wouldn't short. The hot or neutral will only have continuity to the common at any given time. with both commons going to the light, it will either be on (hot one side-neutral other side) off (hot-hot) on (neutral-hot) or off (neutral-neutral). The violation is obviously the opening of the neutral to turn it off.

The receptacle would be connected to the top and bottom wires.

OOPS…I just realized that part of my typing didn’t make it when I cut and pasted for this post. The diagram shown will work if you have four wires. If you only have 3 you could only control a light at one building using the method Russ describes.

Curt

[This message has been edited by caselec (edited 01-31-2004).]

The method Russ mentioned is a common installtion found here in NE PA in older homes."The Trolly System" For a 3-way system between the 1st and 2nd floor, Using Knob-and-Tube wire, the installer would run a hot and neutral to the downstairs 1st floor switch location (placing them on the 2 traveler terminals) and then a single conductor (from the common) to the light.

Then the installer would find a 120 volt (hot and neutral) circuit somewhere upstairs and run them to the 2nd floor switch location (placing them on the traveler terminals) and running a single conductor (from the common) to the light.

Now from this you can see that when the light is OFF..there will be either 2 neutrals or 2 hots (same phase) at the light.

I first came across "The Trolly System" several years ago. We updated a 60amp, single phase, fuse panel to a 100amp, 220 volt, breaker panel. Well, after we finished the job and went home, my boss got a call from the home owner. The bulb in the hallway would get real bright for about 3 seconds and POOP!!!and so of course the home owner keep putting new bulbs in until they ran out of them and finally called my boss.

Remember in the orginal installation the 2 hots at the light where the same Phase and there was no problem, the light would be OFF. Heres were the problem started...When we put the panel together we put the circuit feeding the upstairs switch on A Phase and the 1st floor switch on B Phase. Of course we did not realize this at the time. And we all know that regular incandescent bulbs do not work to well on 220 volts.

Now, every panel change out I do. I check for this trolly system. And I have came across it probally a dozen times so far.

Frank