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Posted By: sparky111 Question - 01/30/04 01:22 AM
I have two lights one on my house and one on my barn outside.There are two threeways that operate them.I need a recept. in the barn and the pipe to the barn is maxed out. How can I get the plug to stay hot.
Posted By: LK Re: Question - 01/30/04 01:44 AM
Sparky111,
Easy change existing switch feed to feed only, and use X10 Devices to control lighting.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Question - 01/30/04 06:56 AM
You mean you're looking to run a receptacle off of a lighting circuit?
Is that legal?.
Posted By: frank Re: Question - 01/30/04 08:07 AM
Trumpy
It's legal in Canada but i don't like it either.

[This message has been edited by frank (edited 01-30-2004).]
Posted By: sparky111 Re: Question - 01/30/04 11:00 AM
This is residential not commerical.I don't think it is an issue to run a recpt off a lighting circuit its not 277.
Posted By: sparky111 Re: Question - 01/30/04 11:03 AM
This isnt a real job but a triva question that my forman asked me. I can't seem to think of the solution..
Posted By: pauluk Re: Question - 01/30/04 11:40 AM
Quote
You mean you're looking to run a receptacle off of a lighting circuit?
Is that legal?

Mike,
It's quite normal in North America to have a branch circuit feeding both receptacles and lights, although there are a few NEC requirements to limit this, e.g. the small appliance branch circuits in a kitchen.
Posted By: rmiell Re: Question - 01/30/04 08:30 PM
"This isnt a real job but a triva question that my forman asked me. I can't seem to think of the solution.."

Sounds like someone is trying to install a "California 3-way", or whatever you call it. It is an illegal way to wire.

Are there other names for this setup?

Rick Miell
Posted By: Roger Re: Question - 01/30/04 08:55 PM
Rick, I've heard it called Chicago and Tennessee.

Roger
Posted By: earlydean Re: Question - 01/30/04 09:20 PM
There is a legal way to do it with 4 wires, plus the grounding conductor. Picture the receptacle in the garage. It takes two wires to energize it, the hot (1) and the neutral (2). Run them from the house. Picture two three-way switches, one at the garage and one in the house. Connect a hot jumper conductor to the top of each three-way. Connect one wire between the pivot-points (or commons) of the two switches (3). The last wire is the switched leg (4). Connect the switched leg to the bottom part of each three-way and to the lights at the garage and the house. Draw it out, it works, and it is legal. (Paralleling the hots with two #12s connected to a 20 amp breaker is legal.) What is not legal is the California hook-up where the ground is used as the return path (neutral), but the rest is the same.
Posted By: russ m Re: Question - 01/30/04 09:24 PM
Psss, Pss, I didn't tell ya this, but if you run the hot and neutral on the travelers. Then run both commons to the light, the three way works with 3 wires. Now just tap off the travelers for your receptacle.
But you didn't hear it from me

[This message has been edited by russ m (edited 01-30-2004).]
Posted By: sparky Re: Question - 01/30/04 09:35 PM
sure russ, just break that little tab inbettween the hot terminals of the receptacle.... so what code (here) would be broken ??

~S~
Posted By: LK Re: Question - 01/30/04 11:58 PM
From the house to the barn you use only 2 wires, white and black. Then you install X10 switch in the house and X10 switch in the barn. have your recpt. in the barn. easy way to go.
Posted By: Jps1006 Re: Question - 01/31/04 02:38 AM
Russ, you're a genious. I read this post last night and was trying to get my brother to figure it out at break today. He had heard this puzzler about six months ago and had figured it out, but since forgot. We never did figure it out before it was time to get back to work.

Actually, the whole thing came up when the carpenter was telling us about the "California Patch" job he had done on the abandoned (wire and pipe was removed) light box in the ceiling. You cut one side of the drywall the size of the hole, and have the paper on the other side over sized. Then mud, sssssspppppppllllllluuuhhhhh and smooth.

Thank you California. What else has California given us?
Posted By: sparky111 Re: Question - 01/31/04 12:16 PM
LK what is an x-10 device?
Posted By: earlydean Re: Question - 01/31/04 01:23 PM
Russ,
With your way, if I throw one switch,the lights go off, and the breaker trips. How can you say "run the hot and neutral on the travellers"? Are they still connected to the 3-way? If they are, ZAP. If they are disconnected, then how does it switch? Like I said, the California hook-up uses the grounding conductor for the neutral, then uses the white wire to connect the two commons together. One traveller is the switched leg, the other is hot.

Earl
Posted By: LK Re: Question - 01/31/04 06:38 PM
X10 Devices work on power line frequency control, They allow control functions at remote locations. These devices are in stock at most Box stores. You can get information on the verious uses at http://www.x10.com/automation/product_modules_switches.htm We have been using them for years, to solve just the problem described in this post.

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 01-31-2004).]
Posted By: Jps1006 Re: Question - 01/31/04 07:48 PM
But what about the light on the house? You'd need four wires to get that other common back to the house.

But if the original three-way was wired correctly to start with, you'd already have four wires.

Earl, I didn't quite follow you're way with four wires. would it still operate like a 3-way giving you full function from both sides?

Russ's way wouldn't short. The hot or neutral will only have continuity to the common at any given time. with both commons going to the light, it will either be on (hot one side-neutral other side) off (hot-hot) on (neutral-hot) or off (neutral-neutral). The violation is obviously the opening of the neutral to turn it off.
Posted By: caselec Re: Question - 01/31/04 08:37 PM
[Linked Image from caselectric.com]

The receptacle would be connected to the top and bottom wires.

OOPS…I just realized that part of my typing didn’t make it when I cut and pasted for this post. The diagram shown will work if you have four wires. If you only have 3 you could only control a light at one building using the method Russ describes.

Curt

[This message has been edited by caselec (edited 01-31-2004).]
Posted By: koz-man Re: Question - 01/31/04 09:12 PM
The method Russ mentioned is a common installtion found here in NE PA in older homes."The Trolly System" For a 3-way system between the 1st and 2nd floor, Using Knob-and-Tube wire, the installer would run a hot and neutral to the downstairs 1st floor switch location (placing them on the 2 traveler terminals) and then a single conductor (from the common) to the light.

Then the installer would find a 120 volt (hot and neutral) circuit somewhere upstairs and run them to the 2nd floor switch location (placing them on the traveler terminals) and running a single conductor (from the common) to the light.

Now from this you can see that when the light is OFF..there will be either 2 neutrals or 2 hots (same phase) at the light.

I first came across "The Trolly System" several years ago. We updated a 60amp, single phase, fuse panel to a 100amp, 220 volt, breaker panel. Well, after we finished the job and went home, my boss got a call from the home owner. The bulb in the hallway would get real bright for about 3 seconds and POOP!!!and so of course the home owner keep putting new bulbs in until they ran out of them and finally called my boss.

Remember in the orginal installation the 2 hots at the light where the same Phase and there was no problem, the light would be OFF. Heres were the problem started...When we put the panel together we put the circuit feeding the upstairs switch on A Phase and the 1st floor switch on B Phase. Of course we did not realize this at the time. And we all know that regular incandescent bulbs do not work to well on 220 volts.

Now, every panel change out I do. I check for this trolly system. And I have came across it probally a dozen times so far.

Frank
Posted By: russ m Re: Question - 01/31/04 11:18 PM
I don't take credit for this system, I learned it the hard way just like alot of others.
"How the heck does this work?" is what I said the first time I seen it.

While the threeway will work this way with three wires.
To operate the light on the house would require a fourth wire.

Done the right way it takes five wires plus the ground (metal conduit).
Posted By: classicsat Re: Question - 02/03/04 08:53 PM
You would have an X-10 receiver/switch at the house AND the barn, set to the same house/unit code. You would have a transmittere at the house and barn, set tot he same housecode/unit code as the receiver switch in the house/barn.
Posted By: LK Re: Question - 02/03/04 11:59 PM
Classicsat,
That is the beauty of X10, you can configure it as needed. Most of the house to garage systems use a receiver/timer cost about $19.00 and 2 X10 SP Switches and a Hard wire Lamp Mod. Saves time and material. More functions just add mod and code.
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