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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 687
A
Member
Hey Charles,

The Lutron 6kw dimmers use 3 seperate circuits at 2kw each.
They have 3 models the HP-2, HP-4, and HP-6 rated at 2kw, 4kw, and 6kw. Inside they have a dimming board made for 2kw. The HP-2 has 1 dimming board, HP-4 has 2, and HP has 3 of those boards.

The dimming boards line and loads are all seperate from each other. Also the control board can use a seperate switch leg and nut. if desired. The control board also has a limited energy control (maybe 12v) for other uses such at all on full on. This can be tied to items like a security system, push buttons, or other controls.

So to use a HP-6 on single phase you would need 3 switch legs and 2 nutrals off the chandelier going to the HP-6.
From the panel you need 3 circuits to the HP-6. They might as well be 20 amp. From the dimmer switch you need the switch leg and the same hot and nutral used with the dimmer.
If you can spare a few watts the dimmer switch can use one of the 3 hot circuits. The dimmer load is very small, I forgot what but am guessing about 50 watts. Any incondescent dimmer should work but I like the Maestro (MA-600) for this.

Another feature is if you wanted other lighting such as the other chandeliers controlled the same as the big chandelier with the same dimmer switch just add more HP dimmers. They have a output that will control more HP modules. Of coarse you would need more circuits from the panel and more switch legs to do this.

When your done it's easy to have 12 or so conductors run to the HP-6. Also there is fine tune adjustments to make each circuit the same brightness.

This set-up would cost more than a few 2kw wall dimmers and takes more time to install.

The advantage is using only 1 standard wall dimmer, the wall dimmer does not heat up, the part that has the mechanical wear (wall dimmer) is a low cost part.

Here is more information:
https://www.lutron.com/grafikeye/specs/hp246.pdf



Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,382
Likes: 7
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The only data I can give you now is based on a GE 'A' lamp, clear, 120 volt rated, 120 volt operational.....
A25 output is 215 lumens, or 8.6 lumens per watt (rated)
A60 output is 870 lumens, or 14.5 lumens per watt (rated)

Based on the above data, I will say 'yes' you get more lumens per watt from a larger bulb.

Shadowing, dark spots, uneven preceived light levels, and a possible plethora of other undesireable conditions could happen by a redesign of the socket locations and lamp size.

As to the Leviton/Lutron/ etc debate....personal choices based on experience will generate many opinions of which is "best". As I mentioned above, a 'spec' grade dimmer of suitable wattage will work. Trim out appearance is again a personal opinion....simplicity of operation by turning a few knobs, sliding a few slide type controls.....maybe even 'marking' various set points, or details of 'on/off' with the desired effect. Simple, relatively cheap (compared to pro type control systems; what mor could be requested???





John
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 362
Member
Hi Guys,
I just figured that since the progress rep showed me some nice new trims that fit in there P-87 can that have LED at a reasonable cost. So I figure this project would warrant a look.

Ob


Choose your customers, don't let them choose you.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
E
e57 Offline
Member
Having done a few large fixture jobs - I too will suggest some remote located Lutron HP panels and Graffik Eye controls if not just this fixture, but scenes in this and in various adjacent rooms.

Now fogive me as I apply my lisp, and draw out my inner lighting designer... 'Your little project needs to be in the hands of a competant professional...' (Both hands waving...)

The fixture itself I would leave "as is" in terms of switching and lamping. Much of the re-work that may or not be necessary should be done by a proffessional firm that specializes in 'period works'. As would any removal or re-hanging of, or shipping/handling of the fixture. IMO - the goals your customer/friend is looking to accomplish can be handled without messing with this fixture at all - unless it is in real need of repair. i.e. insulation or fitting damage.

My suggestions would be;

  • Back lighting the stained glass from outside.
  • Hiding deeply recessed lighting behind the cielings wood work to wash/general fill on the walls.
  • Deeply recessed spot lighting - deep enough and with a small apature to make them as invisable as possible in the field of the cieling lighting above the head ends of the tables. And of course a faux finish on the trim to really hide it.
  • Add either period or custom built wall sconces or torchiers to the walls for general and astetic lighting, and to remove the burden of the chandellier for general lighting.


Although this is a period room - much can be done with more modern lighting approches to improve function without ruining the astetics IMO. And the coffered cieling gives much to hide it all from view.


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 60
C
Charles Offline OP
Member
Hi e57;

I think the other rooms will probably have switches, etc, upgraded in the future, but the adjacent rooms all have one/two chandeliers and picture lights, basically, so I don't think they would benefit from a more complex control system. When events are held in this room, they are general contained within it, unless it's just something like a reception or gallery event, where I think it's mostly lights on.

The structure of the chandelier itself is in very fine condition. It's just the sockets, etc. They date to the 1920s and some have failed.

I have thought about back lighting the stained glass as well. Fortunately, the balcony for the upstairs ballroom runs along that wall as the windows for this room are lined up exactly with the balcony doors above. That also lends to the possibility of lighting the stained glass upstairs as well, as the the ballroom has gothic stained glass windows that open to reveal the balcony doors. The balcony is iron, about 70' long and has decking.

As for recessed lighting, that too sounds like a good idea, although I'm not sure how that would be accomplished easily at this time. I'm sure it was a hassle to route the singular feet to that one central chandelier and I don't think that Mrs T is quite ready to be putting holes in her ceiling right now.

The room is actually quite dazzling when the other chandeliers are fully lit, or even dimmed down a little, and part of the atmosphere of this residence is not to have it completely bright. It is comfortably bright now, it is just a matter of fixing the wiring in this chandelier. "Authentically", this room would have been rather dark with its north facing windows and now-gone four singular lanterns.

I have thought about suggesting moving the banquet lamps away from the end walls and having them against the pilasters of the two longer walls, two on each side of the room. It might, however, crowd the collection of rather handsome Gothic and Renaissance sideboards and chests along the north wall (there is one under each of the six double windows).

Sconces, I don't think, would suit this room. The banquet lamps on high pedestals would certainly have the effect that torchières would provide.

The recessed lighting though is tempting to push for, even though this isn't my house. It may come at a later point. Part of the saving grace of this house is that not too much has been done to physically disrupt the interiors. Many other local mansions were gutted, torn down, etc.

The owner and her family restored antiques and designed, built and restored stained glass windows. Indeed, the house was purchased to house their immense collection of antiques which started with "only" 17 transport van loads several decades ago.

They even designed, constructed and decorated a room in the house which used to be an open loggia on the second floor.

I'm sure that the owner is certainly qualified to have the restoration done by one of her teams. The electrical of the chandelier and switching will, at the least, be done by a qualified electrician. I think I would lean for the three switched legs to the chandelier, if I were the one making the decision, although a more cohesive system would at least be desired or thought of even if not implemented at this time.

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 60
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Charles Offline OP
Member
HotLine;

That is the information I was looking for. Thank you! Although I do agree, it will probably lead to dark spots to reduce the number of lamps.

Regarding the dimmers, I do agree that notes and what not could be left at the controls, which would surely have a trim adjustment. Do any of the Lutron or Leviton models have a hi-end trim setting?

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 60
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Charles Offline OP
Member
Active1;

That system looks well-suited to this application and I will certainly make note of it to the owner. I do not know if any budgeting for such a system will come out of funds for the Foundation or the owner's personal funds, and as such I feel it is not my business to ask.

For terms of functionality though, I think the bank of dimmer switches will work, although I would probably hope that a means of a whole chandelier shut down could be achieved, probably with a double pole switch ahead of the dimmers.

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,382
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Charles:
All (that I have seen & used) have trim settings.
The 'scene' systems are semi idiot resistant also.



John
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 60
C
Charles Offline OP
Member
HL;

That's good to know... This chandelier completely lit would be overwhelming with the amount of light concentrated in one fixture.

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 60
C
Charles Offline OP
Member
Regarding my lengthy post about lighting the stained glass from the exterior, etc, what sort of fixtures would best be used to accomplish this?

Also, the front of the residence would benefit from illumination at night. The front, the narrowest side of the house, is about 150 feet long and is, I would say, about 140 feet from the driveway, which is T-shaped with the end splitting either way perpendicularly to the main-axis of the driveway, which is slightly off axis with the castle. Facing this side, half of the house is two stories, about 40' tall and the second half is three stories, about 60' tall.

It is best illustrated here: Aerial view

I ask this because I think it would be best to also illuminate the roof, which is a steep, slate mansard roof, rather than just the facade, which is what seems to be done with the current lighting (a single fixture set out daily which is plugged in, it only illuminates the three story section which connects to the two story wing).

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