ECN Forum Forums Safety Discussion and News Occupational Safety Discussion Occupational First-Aid

it think it was act 136, or maybe 137 (VSA)created a few years ago here. We followed it for some time, basically it allowed for public use of de-fibs.

This meant the bro's in blue, given an extended cpr course, could carry them on board.

It also meant defibs could accessed publicly at theaters, ballfields, anywhere those in charge wished to have them....

Who has the higest rate of defib saves? and old ARC rag i carted around during the act 136 jihad headlined the cops as numero uno

fwiw, the cops being more places than ems reduced the window of opportunity substaintially, creating better stats....it's not because people code at donut shops....

add to this the homeland security golden goose funding grants that has this greased rather well...

the ARC & AHA both have short cpr/defib courses now, they work, i've taught them (AHA, the ARC is a pita)

the state of VT dept of ems immediatley dropped anything to do with cpr, and now it's insane leader has issued a leter recommending removal of these units from all our bro's in blue

this isn't the first turf war he's created either.... believe me , when it comes down to safety, a $$$ is always either pushing or pulling the strings

point out, however, that the status quo may be bias, and guess what? your usually alone doing so.....

~S~

I'm not ashamed to admit what stats prove... as a full time FF/PM, our cops beat us to scenes regularly. I know as a volunteer, our cops there beat us to scenes regularly.

Cops are on the road when the call comes in - F/T'rs are (usually) in the station, or, as Chief Murphy would have it, on the exact opposite end of the district on some BS inspection or drill when the call comes in. And of course us vollies are at home, mowing the grass, and have to haul butt to the station before heading to help.

Why not let them (PD) use the advantage of arriving within the "platinum minutes" immediately after the heart goes into arrythmia to deliver lifesaving defibrillation? WHEN IT"S MOST EFFECTIVE!?!?!

This VT EMS *ss is putting $$ (and ego methinks) agead of lives. Unfortunately, like many government (correction - bureaucrat) wonks, it's not the first, and won't be the last time... I'm just sad that folks in the streets (citizens and blue shirts of both types) will be the ones paying the price.

Guys,
As in Steve (sparky) and DougW, I must say that I agree.
Defib units should never have been distributed to those that can't use them correctly, as in the Public units.
As bad CPR technique will cause a person to die, so will improper use of a defib unit.
Can you imagine a guy that has only seen that sort of gear used on ER, resusitating people?.
We have that gear in our Appliances these days, thankfully the Ambo's have been there first!.

one could argue this Trumpy....for instance the new laymans cpr here does not check a carotid, and i do belive they've considered forgoing ventilations.....

...i've had nurses and docs show up first on MVA's w/trauma codes....they're a tad lost w/o thier toys...

due to manpower here, we've also solicited help on the spot.....sometimes it works, sometimes we just tell them to go boil water....(if it doesn't)


i won't bore you with the stories Doug, nobody here from Med control down to this lowly ems'er is happy with this fool in charge

many have left his dept in the last few years in fact....

~S~

Mind you Sparky,
I've heard the figure of as little as 6% of MCI victims and Car crash victims, unless they are given real medical care in the first 10 minutes after an incident happens, they have little chance of surviving, after 30 minutes this goes down to 1%.
Food for thought really.
Sparky, I have the greatest of esteem for the Ambulance(EMS) staff here, unfortunately in these days of drunken hoons, we work together quite frequently and they are always the first people to raise your spirits at a bad Car Crash!.
From Alan D(Senior Station Officer) down to the new girl Jess, I like them all!.

I work at a small power generator with an equally small staff (38).
We are trained annually on first aid/first responder, CPR, confined space retrieval, and several others.
Included in the CPR training is the new defib unit that is "smart" I don't know if you have seen any of these. All you have to do is apply the sticky pads (it tells/shows you where on each pad, plug in the cable and turn it on. It will check for a pulse and recommend action. It will not let you shock if it finds a pulse. It is pretty neat, but I hope that I never get to see it in use.

Hey there Big Ed!,
Welcome to ECN!.
That de-fib unit sounds pretty cool and SMART too!.

Ed and Trumpy:
what you are referring to is called an saed unit. it is a semi automatic external defibrilator. It senses the hearts arrythmias (ventricular fib)or asystolie(flatline)it only allows the patient to be shocked only when it will do benefit to the patient. otherwise it instructs the bystander or operator to do cpr and it often gives assistance by speaking out the instructions for those who are panicked by the events that are happening. I Was an EMT for 6 years and had to be trained on the use of these when they were brand new(back in the 80's. They have only gotten better with time and are now even more dependable than when i was using them daily. there was a group at the college trying to get them installed at the college, for use there. there is a small training course 2-3 hours for people to become very proficient in their use.

[This message has been edited by sparkystudent (edited 07-18-2004).]

Correct me, if I'm wrong, but a certain majority of medical emergencies happen during the Lunch break, as in Choking accidents?.
Now also, what is the true story about the Heimlich Maneouver?.
Are you allowed to use this technique these days?, without having a law-suit for a ruptured spleen.
I have helped choking persons over the last year or so, it's worked for me (and them, oddly enough!).
So what's all the bother?.

The old Heimlich maneuver is now referred to as "abdominal thrusts", and is taught by both the American Red Cross and the American Heart Association as part of CPR classes.

As far as the potential for lawsuit, while it's true that anyone can sue anybody for anything, it's still more difficult to actually collect. You have to prove resultant harm. So let's look at your scenario. Mate starts choking on a big bite of a Vegemite sandwich (sorry Trump, couldn't resist )

Perform thrust, clear airway. Victim survives, but is in hospital for a few days, for a cost of $10,000.

Don't perform thrust, airway remains obstructed, victim collapses and dies. Cheap, but more costly over time to his family.

Most courts would weigh the factors and decide that living, even with an injury that results from the saving of one's life, is preferable to the alternative.

If nothing else, they could sue you for not doing anything too!