ECN Forum
Posted By: Trumpy Occupational First-Aid - 06/17/04 12:05 PM
I've recently (last week) completed a course in Occupational First-Aid (Patient-care)and another in Emergency Spinal Care.
It took 4 days of 8 hours, but well worth the time spent.
Tell me, as a First Aider at your workplace, do you get sent on these courses?.
I am the First Aider at my workplace, but I have to do my own training and pay for it myself, the reason being, I'll get the most benefit out of it, in the end(?).
Do you guys have the same stumbling block?.
Or do I just work for an egg-head?. [Linked Image]
Posted By: twh Re: Occupational First-Aid - 06/18/04 01:49 AM
My employers have always paid for First Aid for all their employees, but it is usually outside work hours. When I think about it, the union shops provided training during work hours.

Some employers also pay for "Transportation of Dangerous Goods", "Workplace Hazardous Materials Information System", "H2S Alive" or CPR. They complain, but they pay.

I have heard of employers who don't pay, and I've always thought they were egg-heads.
Posted By: DougW Re: Occupational First-Aid - 06/18/04 05:09 AM
I guess I'm lucky. When I was younger, I read the Red Cross 1st aid book, and grew up on "EMERGENCY!", so I guess I just gravitated towards being a "go to" guy when folks get hurt.

(I'm not discussing my accident prone childhood. In fact, I deny that I ever had a childhood. Next question)

Fresh out of college, I paid for myself to go through EMT class; years later, I'm a FF/Paramedic at my "day job", with training paid for by the City. Now, when working as an EC I'm the guy at the job site who gets all of the "eewww - you're gonna need stitches" type injuries from the other trades.

At my last EC my foreman was a Lt. on my VFD, so we'd trade off on telling guys they should go to the hospital. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Occupational First-Aid - 06/18/04 09:58 AM
Doug,
This is the one thing that rips my britches about my Boss' comments, sure I get trained, but it will always be someone else that benefits from the knowledge that I have gained.
And for my Boss to start running down the St Johns people that ran the course is just not on!.
These people are Operational Ambulance Officers(Paramedics), most of whom I have worked with at MVA sites, and if they don't know First Aid, we are all in trouble!. [Linked Image]
He reckoned his course would have taken half as long and taught me twice as much, not sure who he was talking about, they must be idiots just like him.
He even moaned about us carrying Rubber gloves in the Vans, in case we did come upon an accident while out in the feild, and considering that I have controlled the bleeding of 7 people just passing an accident site, while on the road, it should shut his mouth!. [Linked Image]
Posted By: mvpmaintman Re: Occupational First-Aid - 06/18/04 10:55 PM
We get CPR, First Aid and rescue training paid for by our employer. We even practice removing people from different types of machinery. Everyone has an assigned task, and they don't always tell us when the drills will be, so we get a chance to function in as close to a real situation as possible.

Yes, I have done the real thing too and it's definitely not fun.

Dave
Posted By: nesparky Re: Occupational First-Aid - 06/19/04 04:34 AM
Since I own my company I get to pay for it all. That is one area that it is foolish not to have more than one person trained in. After all what happens if the one and only first aider is the injured party?
It is also necessary to make sure those trained know thir limits and when to send for help.
Posted By: DougW Re: Occupational First-Aid - 06/20/04 01:05 PM
Quote
He even moaned about us carrying Rubber gloves in the Vans, in case we did come upon an accident while out in the feild...

[sarcasm]Well geez, Mike, I kinda see his point - couldn't you just use your Lineman's gloves, and hose 'em off when your done? They are rubber, right? [Linked Image] [/sarcasm]
Posted By: Lostazhell Re: Occupational First-Aid - 07/05/04 05:51 PM
In our trade, I wish it were part of training from apprenticeship on, to know CPR & basic first aid... A while ago I read a story in the LA Times where a utility worker (LADWP?) was connecting feeders in an underground pull section for a house that was being remodeled... The utility worker lost his balance & fell arms out into the hand hole & became "hooked up".. The electrician working on the project pryed him loose with a wooden pole & performed CPR, saving this guys life.... I've personally been witness to things such as framers shooting themselves in the foot & hand, window installer pushing through the pane & slicing his arm seriously & a drywaller half cutting his finger off with a stanley knife... Having that CPR card makes me feel safer with my 4 year old son also [Linked Image]

-Randy
Posted By: sparky Re: Occupational First-Aid - 07/06/04 01:35 AM
people typicaly know more about thier livelyhood that about how thier bodies keep them alive don't they?

so when some of us take the inititave to learn the latter, what happens? we become the poster boy for safety, and get the nod from management

until we start sending people to the er, creating paperwork, downtime, expense, etc...

then we're a liability, no longer the insurance premium reduction asset we started out to be....

~S~

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 07-05-2004).]
Posted By: sabrown Re: Occupational First-Aid - 07/06/04 12:38 PM
As a new dad again, I was very greatful to renew my CPR and First Aid and also to add infant and child CPR paid for by my employer.

Shane
Posted By: sparky Re: Occupational First-Aid - 07/08/04 10:30 PM
it think it was act 136, or maybe 137 (VSA)created a few years ago here. We followed it for some time, basically it allowed for public use of de-fibs.

This meant the bro's in blue, given an extended cpr course, could carry them on board.

It also meant defibs could accessed publicly at theaters, ballfields, anywhere those in charge wished to have them....

Who has the higest rate of defib saves? and old ARC rag i carted around during the act 136 jihad headlined the cops as numero uno

fwiw, the cops being more places than ems reduced the window of opportunity substaintially, creating better stats....it's not because people code at donut shops....

add to this the homeland security golden goose funding grants that has this greased rather well...

the ARC & AHA both have short cpr/defib courses now, they work, i've taught them (AHA, the ARC is a pita)

the state of VT dept of ems immediatley dropped anything to do with cpr, and now it's insane leader has issued a leter recommending removal of these units from all our bro's in blue

this isn't the first turf war he's created either.... believe me , when it comes down to safety, a $$$ is always either pushing or pulling the strings

point out, however, that the status quo may be bias, and guess what? your usually alone doing so.....

~S~
Posted By: DougW Re: Occupational First-Aid - 07/09/04 04:08 AM
I'm not ashamed to admit what stats prove... as a full time FF/PM, our cops beat us to scenes regularly. I know as a volunteer, our cops there beat us to scenes regularly.

Cops are on the road when the call comes in - F/T'rs are (usually) in the station, or, as Chief Murphy would have it, on the exact opposite end of the district on some BS inspection or drill when the call comes in. And of course us vollies are at home, mowing the grass, and have to haul butt to the station before heading to help.

Why not let them (PD) use the advantage of arriving within the "platinum minutes" immediately after the heart goes into arrythmia to deliver lifesaving defibrillation? WHEN IT"S MOST EFFECTIVE!?!?!

This VT EMS *ss is putting $$ (and ego methinks) agead of lives. Unfortunately, like many government (correction - bureaucrat) wonks, it's not the first, and won't be the last time... I'm just sad that folks in the streets (citizens and blue shirts of both types) will be the ones paying the price.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Occupational First-Aid - 07/09/04 08:30 AM
Guys,
As in Steve (sparky) and DougW, I must say that I agree.
Defib units should never have been distributed to those that can't use them correctly, as in the Public units.
As bad CPR technique will cause a person to die, so will improper use of a defib unit.
Can you imagine a guy that has only seen that sort of gear used on ER, resusitating people?.
We have that gear in our Appliances these days, thankfully the Ambo's have been there first!.
Posted By: sparky Re: Occupational First-Aid - 07/09/04 11:29 AM
Quote
As bad CPR technique will cause a person to die, so will improper use of a defib unit.

one could argue this Trumpy....for instance the new laymans cpr here does not check a carotid, and i do belive they've considered forgoing ventilations.....

Quote
Can you imagine a guy that has only seen that sort of gear used on ER, resusitating people?.
...i've had nurses and docs show up first on MVA's w/trauma codes....they're a tad lost w/o thier toys...

due to manpower here, we've also solicited help on the spot.....sometimes it works, sometimes we just tell them to go boil water....(if it doesn't)

Quote
This VT EMS *ss is putting $$ (and ego methinks) agead of lives

i won't bore you with the stories Doug, nobody here from Med control down to this lowly ems'er is happy with this fool in charge

many have left his dept in the last few years in fact....

~S~
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Occupational First-Aid - 07/10/04 10:26 AM
Mind you Sparky,
I've heard the figure of as little as 6% of MCI victims and Car crash victims, unless they are given real medical care in the first 10 minutes after an incident happens, they have little chance of surviving, after 30 minutes this goes down to 1%.
Food for thought really.
Sparky, I have the greatest of esteem for the Ambulance(EMS) staff here, unfortunately in these days of drunken hoons, we work together quite frequently and they are always the first people to raise your spirits at a bad Car Crash!.
From Alan D(Senior Station Officer) down to the new girl Jess, I like them all!. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Big Ed Re: Occupational First-Aid - 07/12/04 05:09 PM
I work at a small power generator with an equally small staff (38).
We are trained annually on first aid/first responder, CPR, confined space retrieval, and several others.
Included in the CPR training is the new defib unit that is "smart" I don't know if you have seen any of these. All you have to do is apply the sticky pads (it tells/shows you where on each pad, plug in the cable and turn it on. It will check for a pulse and recommend action. It will not let you shock if it finds a pulse. It is pretty neat, but I hope that I never get to see it in use.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Occupational First-Aid - 07/16/04 10:09 AM
Hey there Big Ed!,
Welcome to ECN!. [Linked Image]
That de-fib unit sounds pretty cool and SMART too!. [Linked Image]
Posted By: sparkystudent Re: Occupational First-Aid - 07/18/04 05:01 AM
Ed and Trumpy:
what you are referring to is called an saed unit. it is a semi automatic external defibrilator. It senses the hearts arrythmias (ventricular fib)or asystolie(flatline)it only allows the patient to be shocked only when it will do benefit to the patient. otherwise it instructs the bystander or operator to do cpr and it often gives assistance by speaking out the instructions for those who are panicked by the events that are happening. I Was an EMT for 6 years and had to be trained on the use of these when they were brand new(back in the 80's. They have only gotten better with time and are now even more dependable than when i was using them daily. there was a group at the college trying to get them installed at the college, for use there. there is a small training course 2-3 hours for people to become very proficient in their use.

[This message has been edited by sparkystudent (edited 07-18-2004).]
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Occupational First-Aid - 07/31/04 11:12 AM
Correct me, if I'm wrong, but a certain majority of medical emergencies happen during the Lunch break, as in Choking accidents?.
Now also, what is the true story about the Heimlich Maneouver?.
Are you allowed to use this technique these days?, without having a law-suit for a ruptured spleen.
I have helped choking persons over the last year or so, it's worked for me (and them, oddly enough!).
So what's all the bother?. [Linked Image]
Posted By: DougW Re: Occupational First-Aid - 08/02/04 12:50 AM
The old Heimlich maneuver is now referred to as "abdominal thrusts", and is taught by both the American Red Cross and the American Heart Association as part of CPR classes.

As far as the potential for lawsuit, while it's true that anyone can sue anybody for anything, it's still more difficult to actually collect. You have to prove resultant harm. So let's look at your scenario. Mate starts choking on a big bite of a Vegemite sandwich (sorry Trump, couldn't resist [Linked Image] )

Perform thrust, clear airway. Victim survives, but is in hospital for a few days, for a cost of $10,000.

Don't perform thrust, airway remains obstructed, victim collapses and dies. Cheap, but more costly over time to his family.

Most courts would weigh the factors and decide that living, even with an injury that results from the saving of one's life, is preferable to the alternative.

If nothing else, they could sue you for not doing anything too!
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Occupational First-Aid - 08/07/04 12:11 PM
Doug,
I agree with you whole-heartedly.
We had a talk about this in the Smoko room at work the other day.
I hate my Boss down to the ground, but at the end of the day Doug, I'd be the first one to give him CPR if he had a Heart Attack.
Having been there myself, I am all for preservation of Life.
The same people that I was talking of above in the Smoko room would let a fellow Human-Being die, just because of the fact that they didn't like them.
How Sick!.GRRRR
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