ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade Non-US Electrical Systems & Trades Love it or Hate it?

You can't go to round cable since the ampacity of the round 2.5 mm2 cable is only 19A whereas the flat is 20A. The flatness increases the surface area somewhat.

This became an issue when they introduced the new requirement for at least 20A capacity per "leg" in the ring. The old currency carrying capacity table was based on round cables and would have ruled out rings on 2.5mm2 in some cases. Therefore, they retested the T&E until they got 20A.

Of course, you could also solve it by increasing the temperature rating of the cable.

what i have learned here is that there are probably safer systems than what i deal with in America.

the latest from the (electriaclly speaking) planet of Vermont is to use AFCI's for all living area outlets (an 02' state update)

in effect, aside from an electric range & dryer, a whole house afci protection system.

a few ma but many dinero's are the only difference i see from others here

I think examining the way things are done elsewhere gives one a much better insight into the problems and possible solutions.

Far too many people in this country know little about the wiring systems in other parts of the world and have the "Our system is obviously the best" mentality.

I think the reality is that there are good and bads points to be found the world over.

One thing I've mentioned in the past, but will bring into the discussion again here is the subject of bathroom outlets.

I'm sure that some of my fellow Brits will disagree with what I'm about to say, but I really feel that the IEE should relax its "no sockets in the bathroom" stance. The present rules of allowing only a dedicated xfmr-isolated, low-power shaver receptacle are overly restrictive in my opinion.

People want to be able to use a hair-dryer in a bathroom. It makes sense that they would want to. If there are no outlets in the bathroom, they're just as likely to run an extension to a receptacle in an adjacent hallway or bedroom.

I see no reason why we shouldn't allow a socket in the bathroom, so long as it's coverede by appropriate distance-from-tub rules and provided with GFI/RCD protection. We could even stipulate an American-style 6mA trip for such outlets instead of the usual 30mA used here.

You could go a step further:

Make it splash proof Like an indoor version of a garden socket.

Or if they really want to get fussy make a special 110V (~50V per leg centre tapped trasnformer) outlet, like in building sites available in the bathroom.

They could create a few jobs for people making bathroom only hairdriers

I think going back to the way things were done in the 1930s wouldn't be a great idea though :

My grandmother's bathroom has one big round black 16amp schuko style socket right over the mirror by the sink! (Prob. installed as a DIY job) Originally protected by a 16amp Diazed fuse and nothing else and after almost 50 years of drying her hair at the sink it was finally disconnected in a rewire! and she's still very much alive

Above the socket is an old style 1-bar bathroom heater which would have been plugged into this socket.. she'd have plugged it out to dry her hair.


[This message has been edited by djk (edited 08-02-2003).]

Of if they really felt so inclined, they could specify a center-tapped 240V xfmr so that there's only 120V to ground in there but existing 240V dryers can be used.

OK Paul, I'll jump in here to disagree on the bathroom socket issue.
What percentage of your customers request 13A sockets in the bathroom?
The usual British reaction to mains voltage bathroom sockets seen when overseas on holiday is one of horror.
I have only been asked to install a 13A socket in a bathroom once, the lady making the request was German & had just moved to Scotland.

It is my experience that most Brits accept the idea that 240V portable equipment, such as hairdryers etc. should not be used in the bathroom, myself included. We have grown up with the idea that sockets are not allowed, and most people quite happily use hair care products in the bedroom.
Do you really want to encourage women to spend more time in the bathroom?

Seriously though, the average British bathroom is the size of a postage stamp, it would be difficult to keep portable equipment away from the restricted zones. I don't think the average hairdryer sold in the UK has any IP coding making it suitable for damp locations either and you would also find people routinely taking tv's, radios etc into the bathroom.
I don't think the idea of using 240V CTE with 120V to earth would be an acceptable solution either, US members will confirm that 120V can kill also. Obviously the risk would be much less with a high sensitivity (10mA or less) RCD, but I am still with the official IEE/BSI view on this one.

I don't see why you need a hairdryer in the bathroom it's not the most comfortable place to do that kind of thing.

Isn't it much easier to work at a dressing table? More light, a comfy seat, more mirrors etc etc.

I am strongly in favour of sticking with the current regime. No sockets at all, other than correctly rated isolating transformer shaver sockets.

It's also illegal under irish wiring regulations to install any kind of light switch in a bathroom other than a ceiling mounted string operated switch which has to be out of reach of the shower/bath etc.

Also no fans, light fittings etc operating at 220V can be within arms reach of the bath/shower. Arms reach = the reach of a 6ft 6 guy!.

It's normal practice to have the light switches (& fan switches) located outside the bathroom. I really don't see it as that inconvienient. How often do you need to switch on/off the light while in the bathroom?!

If you're completely determined to dry your hair in the bathroom there is one sollution:

There's a hairdryer available that has a base unit that mounts high up the wall away from the sink.

The user dries his/her hair via a tube so no electrical parts come anywhere near the user. It's a bit like a wall mounted inverted (heated) vacuum cleaner!

(Often seen in hotels)

You don't have siblings do you?

Hmm.... Even stricter than here. I've found that many householders are under the impression that only pull-cord light switches are allowed inside a bathroom in Britain, but that's not the case. A regular wall switch is acceptable so long as it's out of reach of the shower or tub.

David,
I agree with you that the majority of British people wouldn't ask for an outlet in a bathroom, because they know that it's "wrong." But as you said yourself, it's because they've grown up with this notion and just accept that "That's the way it is."

NEC requirements aside, let me ask our American friends if they would accept a bathroom without a receptacle? (And not just a low-power one for a shaver.)


The point about the ridiculously small bathrooms in many British houses is well taken, though.

By the way, we know that a bathroom outlet is considered acceptable in most of Europe, but do any of your local codes actually require one?


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 08-04-2003).]

So true...
I have 3 younger brothers and I'd _never_ want a bathroom switch outside the door. It's bad enough having them switch off the light upon walking out of the bathroom while you're in the tub.