We've been talking about the way that a forum such as ECN allows those of us from diverse countries to exchange ideas and information on our respective wiring systems.

So let's get down to some cases:

Is there anything (be it the design of a device, a circuit arrangement, or whatever) from another country which you think is a great idea and would like to see adopted in your own country?

Conversely, is there anything about a foreign system which you definitely do not like and would not like to see adopted at any cost?

I like that the British and Americans have used protective earth throughout the entire system for decades. I dislike the Swedish idea of sticking to ungrounded sockets.

I like the Belgian use of 20A radials instead of our 10A radials.

I like the Belgian and Irish systems with 40A or 63A single phase rather than our 16A 3-phase. (32A 3-phase would have been even better. ) I don't see the point in the oversize British 100A single phase service.

I don't see the point in the British fear of 3-phase, but at the same time I don't like the Swedish overuse of it. Today we need to get a fan in the office running. It's 3-phase, but only 100W, with separate control gear (which has failed). A 230V plug and a built in pull cord switch would have worked just as well, and been a lot cheaper to fix.

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 07-17-2003).]

I have to agree there. Granted, 3-phase motors run smoothly and efficiently, but for only 100W it seems rather ridiculous.

100W 3ph fan is ridiculous. I think the German way - <3600W -> 1ph, >3600W -> 3ph is quite reasonable. I absolutely hate the thought of running 4 or 6mm2 wires to cookers, 5x2.5 is far easier to work with. 20A radials are a bit too hefty for my liking, 13 or 16A is quite ok. Again we'd need 4mm2 for 20A according to our regs. Ring circuits are far too complex to be safe with all the botching going on, even by licensed pros.
Schuko plugs have a good and a bad side. On the plus side, they won't ever fall out of the receptacle, they're safe because they're recessed, and if you're used to them they don't even look bad.
On the minus side, I recently nearly broke my arm trying to pull out a plug behind my desk. The receptacle is rather new and very strong, so it sometimes takes a lot of force to get out. I've seen more than one surface-mount Schuko receptacle hanging by the wires.

I find the ring circuits ridiculous. I never appreciated Belgian electricity systems, untill I met all of you in this forum! We have standard a minimum of 40A monophase and we can easily get up to 400V 3 phase 40A.
A note abbout 20A radials: 20A can only be used with 2.5 mm2 and with a MCB. A fuse would be 16A.

Personaly I would have appreciated better a TN system than a TT system.

I'm not too keen on the US practice of having sockets with no switches on them.
Sure, you can simply pull the plug-top out, but if there was a reasonably heavy load on the socket, wouldn't this damage the socket contacts after this was done a few times?.

OK I gotta’ toss in some comments about 1ø versus 3ø motors. Appliances like slab- or roof-mounted air-conditioning units, usually contain ‘capacitor-run’ motors, often called PSC {permanent split-capacitor} devices. Like capacitor-start motors, PSC motors have main and auxiliary windings of two different copper gauges. The problem is that the smaller gauge conductor has less thermal mass, and is more prone to failure, regardless of protection method used. Bearing wear, short-term undervoltage, capacitor failure or mechanical overload seem to be able to cook windings in very short order.

In 3ø motors, windings are symmetrical—evening out the stress on winding insulation, making them easier to protect from insulation failure.

In the past, for hermetic and semi-hermetic compressors, the comparative “burnout” failure rate of 1ø versus 3ø has typically been nothing short of extreme…

Well, we're getting some interesting points raised here.

On the 1-ph vs. 3-ph argument, I certainly don't see the point of running 3-ph residential supplies fused at just 16A per phase. It seems to be an unnecessarily complex way of providing a comparatively small amount of power, and results in problems of how to connect heavier appliances for proper distribution of load between phases.

I'm quite happy with the British use of 100A single-phase services though. Adopting a policy of, say, single-phase up to 60A then go to 3-phase wouldn't be too much of a problem in towns and villages where a 4-wire wye network is already running along the street, but it would be a different matter in many rural areas.

At present, an odd couple of houses out on their own are fed with a 1-ph transformer from a two-leg HV spur. If more remote homes such as these had to be wired 3-phase the provision of a 3-wire HV span and 3-ph xfmr bank would likely increase installation
costs considerably.

I think that by now you're all aware that I agree with you entirely about the ring circuit. Not that I can imagine any other country even considering its adoption....

Not just the U.S., but all of Continental Europe and much of the rest of the world as well. Switched receptacles seem to be a very British/Commonwealth thing (Canada excluded).

While we're on the subject of switches, I really wish Britain could have been consistent in its orientation of switches. Depending upon age and make, the main switch on panels can be up=on or down=on. Modern MCBs, RCDs, and main switches are all up=on, but light switches (and other wall mounted switches, e.g. ranges) still adhere to the convention of down=on. Let's get everything working the same way. My vote is for up=on.

Scott,
I hadn't thought about the problems with split-capacitor motors, but then air-con and the like isn't very common here except in big commercial applications. In the majority of houses in Britain (and indeed in most of northern Europe I would think) the most powerful motors to be found are those in a washing machine and refrigerator compressor.

Paul,
how would you run a farm without 3-ph ? Perhaps not all homes in the countryside are farms in Britain?

One drawback of 3-ph is that you need a big panel, with all those 3-pole MCBs. One 3 pole MCB for the cooker, one for the heat pump, one for the pool pump, one for the ventilation system, one for the general purpose socket. Not forgetting the 4 pole RCD. It fills the panel in no time.


Cooker, panel, MCB... My English is somewhere in the middle of the Atlantic.

There are most certainly plenty of homes in the British countryside which are not farms. The 4-wire 3-ph wye system (with 2-wire 240V taps for each house) is common anywhere where there is a group of houses, but for odd houses out on their own a single-phase transformer is often employed.

Here's a typical 1-ph pole-mount xfmr fed from a two-wire 11kV spur:

This particular one is located about a half-mile outside of town (Stalham, pop. approx. 3000) and feeds a pair of houses.

You might remember the can-type transformer in this thread . The area in which this was located has several two-wire 11kV spurs, each running for maybe a quarter to a half-mile to feed odd homes.

So is mine! I started talking about the grounded conductor the other day and then realized from the blank looks that nobody knew what I meant!

Also posted in the Swiss thread..

I really don't like the Danish plug. Of all of the systems in Europe it has one huge flaw.

From my observation the stubby earth prong seems makes contact after the live and neutral pins!! It could easily result in a metal body applience being momentarily live before a ground fault was detected.

On top of that I've seen loads of schuko plugs happily plugged in in Denmark with absolutely no earth contact.

I really can't see the reason for keeping the system as it's not compatible with any of the neighbouring countries and provides absolutely no advantages.

I was supprised that a scandinavian country would come up with such a system.

Schuko ground clips make contact before the phase and neutral make a connection.

The other three non-schuko round pin systems are similar:

The French system contacts the ground pin before any connection is made. It's pretty similar to schuko in most regards although has the advantage of being polarised when a grounded plug is used.

The swiss system has the advantage of being exceptionally neat and switzerland, from my observations, has very few ungrounded outlets and when used with grounded plugs is polarised.

Likewise, the Italian system is very neat and seems, when used correctly, to be at least as safe as schuko.

DJK,
I've taken the liberty of deleting the duplicate in the Swiss thread. Hope you don't mind too much -- I've made a similar duplicate post myself in the past and found that it can lead to a lot of thread jumping and linking trying to piece different parts of the same line of thought together.

I don't think I've ever seen a Danish plug and socket. Does the earth pin really not make contact until after the line and neutral, or are the contacts in the socket for the latter set so far back that earth continuity is assured first?

The French outlets do indeed have the advantage of being polarized, but there doesn't seem to be too much attention paid to which way they're wired. I've seen so many wired apparently at random that I wouldn't like to guess which way is correct. Is there actually a specified standard for this? (i.e. With the ground at the top is neutral on the left or the right?)

Aesthetically, to most of us the French outlets with the male pin on the receptacle look more than a little weird to say the least. Perhaps they don't look quite so strange to those of you who are used to seeing Schuko?

Don't know about the old ones which look just like BS 546, with a big round hole for the earth. These have a switch too, so you should not switch on the power until the plug is fully inserted.

The modern ones have the earth hole designed so that ut makes contact as soon as the pin enters the socket, whereas the other pins have a much longer way to go. I think this compensates for the short earth pin.

I like:
100A Single phase UK domestic supplies.
13A Switched shuttered sockets (not necessarily the ring main)
TNS & TNC-S systems which are the most prevelant in the UK.
I dislike:
UK twin & earth cables with reduced size bare earth wire.
Rewirable fuses which are still found in thousands of older UK installations.
The slow adoption of RCD's in the UK. Ireland for example has required all domestic sockets to be RCD protected since 1980. I would like to see this requirement here, perhaps enforced when a house is sold, as in Queensland, Australia.

I would not like to see un-polarized schuko sockets adopted in the UK, or continental style solid single core cables larger than 2.5sqmm. British cables are stranded over 2.5mm, with 1.5 & 2.5 available in both solid & stranded.

C-H,
You said, "how would you run a farm without 3-ph?"
Some farms in this area only have a "split-phase" 240/480V supply. The HV supply to the transformer only being a 2 wire spur, like the line in Paul's posting above. These supplies can often be found in more remote areas, although obviously 3-ph would be preferable the cost of upgrading may be prohibitive.

The ESB's rural network is generally 3-phase but in spots where only single phase is available they'll just use multiple supplies to a farm where each transformer serves a different building etc.

These areas are ***very*** remote and single phase is gradually being "phased out" (bad pun) in favour of 3-phase as it severly restricts the type of machinary that can be used. E.g. single phase milking parlours are quite limited.

For very low population areas where a 10KV line might only be serving 2 small farms and associated farmhouses it generally poses absolutely no problems at all


There are lots of 10KV 3phase lines running around the countryside here, many of which are being upgraded to 20KV to cope with demand.

Power's distributed with lots of US-style pole mounted can type xformers stepping tapping into one of the phases and stepping it down to 220V 1-phase for domestic premsis or taking all 3 phases and providing 380V to farms.

On another point farm buildings are BY FAR the worst offenders for breeches in wiring code (serious ones)

E.g. Premisis are now actively inspected to insure that simple things are correctly done. E.g. it wasn't too unusual to find BS1363 or even BS546/schuko sockets in the middle of a milking parlour or cow shed! Totally illegal and really dangerous especially considering how easy it is for a cow to get badly electrocuted. Not to mention the fact that they could be sprayed, splashed or kicked!

Major education campaign has been going on for about 25+ years to get small farmers here to "cop on" it's finally working! But only since they've actually started random inspections.


[This message has been edited by djk (edited 07-20-2003).]

Well, farms are farms. Not much to do about that. I'd say that the wiring is one of the lesser problems in many old farm. Sometimes the buildings look like they will come down any minute.

Here in Canada, the smaller farms use single
phase 120/240 service (3 phase is used only on the larger operations), mostly using what is called a CMS system, where the transformer is on a pole central to the buildings, and has a current transformer and meter, with the buildings being
fed radially from the pole, either OH or UG.
Smaller buildings may be subs from larger buildings, rather than supplied from the
service pole.

Farmhouses usually have 200A service, 200A for buildings where a lot of motors are (such as a barn with feed handling or milking equipment) , and most other buildings have a 100A service.

On other things, I am partial to the concept of the fused plug, with 30A at the recepticle, but think radial circuits are easier than a ring.

The Australian plugs are good.

The Bayonnet base bulbs are safer too.

Switched outlets, only whe required I suppose. (>1500W perhaps)

I have mixed feelings about a whole home RCD, rather than the North American way of using GFCI only where warranted.

Typically here in Ireland it's 20 A radials feeding BS1363 sockets and fused plugs/fused connections for fixed appliences (30 amp rings are sometimes used but not quite as much as in the UK)

I have to agree with the comments about farm wiring. I've also seen regular BS1363 outlets and other "indoor" accessories hanging on cables in exposed locations, wires just twisted/taped and strung over the beams, and so on. In fact that goes for outbuildings in general, including domestic sheds, garages, and workshops.

Ain't that the truth!

Here in rural Norfolk there are derelict old farm buildings like this all over the place. Some have been "developed" into vastly over-priced homes. Sure, they have acres of living space inside them when finished and some people have made the interiors very attractive, but they still look as ugly as sin from the outside, IMHO.

I recently saw one of these monstrosities for sale with an asking price of over £100,000 ($160,000). That wasn't the finished article -- Just the unconverted barn in its original (poor) state.

There are plenty of old barns like this all over the French countryside too, but at much more realistic prices (e.g. only 20% of the above and with ten times as much land).

David,
Interesting you say that, as I was going to mention the different earthing systems. I too prefer TN-S or TN-C-S. I've never been keen on the TT system.

I'd agree that TN-S & TN-C-S are the most prevelant in towns, but in this area the majority of rural homes are TT. The whole area network has been converted for TN-C-S, but I see few rural homes which have yet taken advantage of that and earthed to the neutral.

Maybe PME (TN-C-S) was more common years ago in rural areas of the Highlands due to the more rocky ground conditions?

The TT system leads me to the comments from our Canadian friend:
That's one of the drawbacks with TT. The high loop impedance means that every circuit needs to be RCD/GFI protected and the cheapest way, of course, it to provide a main RCD for the whole house.

I'd much prefer to see individual North American-style GFI protection where needed in combination with a TN-C-S distribution system.

David and Paul,

you might like to be informed that the IEC has moved to ban the TT system worldwide. France and some other European countries doesn't like the idea, but it might still become reality.

Another topic. I've never understood supplimental bonding in bathrooms and other places where the wiring is protected by an RCD. Sweden doesn't require it. It turns out that I'm not the only one who doesn't understand. It was discussed at an international meeting some time ago, and might be dropped.

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 07-22-2003).]

Here it is also required supplemental bonding in all bathrooms. The reason given is because of the eventual impendance of the earth wire and therefore can cause a difference of potential. But , personaly I find it far fetched and I don't buy it.

A different reason could be that Belgium has interests in selling as much copper (cables) as possible, since it still owns copper mines in a formal colonies of Congo or some other place. I heard this theory from a fellow Electrician. That might also be the reason why they require according to our code to use 4mm2 for washing machines!

Haha! A copper conspiracy.

Seriously, there is talk of creating a EN IEC 60364.

Warning, speculation from this point onwards

As I understand it, it would then replace the current national wiring regs. E.g. BS 7671 would be replaced with BS EN 60364.

This means that they'll have to go over the national codes and compare them. If there is no reason to require something, it should be removed from the wiring regs, and if there is reason to require something a rule should be added.

This doesn't rule out national specialities like ring mains: The BSI can add an extra chapter with rules specific for Britain. The point is that you know that the all difference between countries is to be found in the extra chapter(s).

This should make it easier for electricans working in other EU countries. You'd probably still need a license for each country, but the process to get an additional country could be greatly simplified. You only need to learn the special chapters and you previous experience in any member country counts.

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 09-26-2003).]

We recently had a very strange situation here in Ireland where the ESB had a contractor working on upgrading the rural networks in the west of the country to 20KV and adding various more modern features to make the network more fault tollerant / resliant etc.

Anyway, the contractor had hired south african electricians who the ESB considered to be insufficiently qualified despite their insistance that they'd worked on such systems before and had the appropriate qualifications. (This was found during some ESB site inspection)

ESB came down like a ton of bricks on the issue, closed the site pending an investigation etc and the guys were left in Ireland with no work, no accomodation, no money etc etc.. was all over the TV news.

It seemed to be down to red tape, but I'm not 100% sure. They seemed quite concerned that these guys were working on stuff that wasn't the same as South African gear that they were familar with without appropriate certification and training.

There may well have been serious consequences for the contractor involved too.

It just underlines the need for some kind of international certification / standards etc for electricians as they are more mobile than ever thesedays.

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 07-22-2003).]

I hadn't heard about that IEC proposal to ban TT, but naturally it would get my vote. They do seem to like TT a lot in some areas of Europe though, so I imagine there will be as much opposition to that proposal there as there would be in Britain if it were proposed to ban the ring circuit or require Schuko outlets as standard.

Interesting on the HV lines in Ireland. I can see the point about not being trained sufficiently, but any decent electrician who has a thorough understanding of the basics should not have too much trouble adapting to different conditions.

Just look at the variations in HV techniques around the world: Delta vs. wye, solidly grounded neutral vs. floating or impedance-grounded, etc.

Question about TT systems—are ground detectors used with them? There are two good reasons for ground detection. One is that if a ground occurs somewhere in a normally ungrounded system, nothing happens overcurrent-wise, but then the second fault will likely cause two overcurrent devices to operate simultaneously.

Another consideration is that without some resistive load-to-ground in the ungrounded system, the normal phase-to-ground capacitance can charge up to much greater than line-to-line voltage, and cause severe arcing damage in the insulation. In cases in the US with intentionally ungrounded systems, this has been learned though {expensive} trial-and-error lessons.

A restriction in US ungrounded systems is that phase-to-neutral loads may not be served, as would be conceivable in an ungrounded 4-wire wye system.




[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 07-22-2003).]

Scott,
I think you're getting mixed up with the European designations: It is the IT system which has the supply floating, and apparently is used in parts of Norway.

The TT system, however, still has the neutral on the wye supply grounded. In fact in the U.K. the electricity supply regulations have required all LV public supplies to have one pole solidly grounded since about 1930.

Where TT differs from American practice is that the main ground busbar at the house has no bond to the neutral -- It is grounded solely to a local rod.

U.K. Supply Systems -- Diagram #3.


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 07-23-2003).]

Djk,

Something similar happened in Sweden (Gothenburg) with British electricians the other year.

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 07-23-2003).]

Thanks for the update/reminder, paul. I'd forgotten scott35's illustrations were two mouseclicks away.

And to answer the question that Bjarney thought he asked: Yes, earth fault detection is used with IT systems for the reasons you list, at least in Norway. The abscence of neutral in this case means that you simply cannot have phase to neutral loads.

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 07-23-2003).]

The American (Edison) System is different then single phase in Europe. The American System uses a centre tapped transformer. The end to end volatge is 240 V and the end to centre is 120 V. In the fusebox, the neutral centre is wired to the incoming water pipe as a ground (earth). The two end leads connect first to a master circuit breaker or fuse holder (on older systems) and then proceed to two columns of fuses or circuit breakers.

Thus, for 120 V service, the connection is line to neutral. For 240 V service, such as for electric heaters, air conditioners, clothes drying machines, electric stoves, etc. a protected outlet is connected line to line.

Single phase 120 V outlets are rated 15 A and 240 V outlets are rated 30 A. Some 120 V - 20 A are available also, but are not as common or are for industrial use.

Single phase appliances are limited to 1200 W @ 120 V. The frequesncy is 60 Hz and the 120 V sockets use flat pins and a rounded ground pin. There wire colours are black for "hot", white for neutral and either green or bare copper for ground (earth).

Hi John, and welcome to ECN. I see you're in Cleveland -- I have memories of waking up on the NYC-Chicago sleeper train to a very crisp, frosty morning in Cleveland and the conductor pointing out the sights on the city skyline as we passed through.

I rather like the 3-wire single-phase system used in North America. It gives the benefits of having 240V available (and thus lower currents) for heavy appliances, but still with only 120V to ground at any point in the system.

Don't you mean 1800 watts (on a 15A circuit) ?



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 07-31-2003).]

Kinda. For a fuseboxe the left hand column is on one leg, the right on the other. If 240V is required for a load, fuse holders on either side of the box are used, mostly beside each other. Since the 1960s, in some brands of fuseboxes, there is a speciall pull out assembly for the fuse sockets, and the ones to be used for 240V loads a so you have to remove the unit from the fusebox to replace the fuses, or to disconnect the circuit. For breaker panels, there are two usses, each to a supply leg, but the bus has a tab bent over, so that the odd tabs are on one leg, the even on the other. A fitting on the breaker grabs the tab. With that configuration, you can supply 240V loads with
a two pole breaker installed in any two adjacent positions.

Actually some appliances have neutrals supplied to them as well, to power 120V components inside them, such as ranges and clothes dryers. They used to get that neutral
from the ground, which is bonded to neutral at the service panel (in the USA).

Another outcome of 120/240V single phase system, is the shared neutral circuit, where there are two hots, each from opposite supply legs (never from the same) which
sher the same neutral an earth.

More and more 120V 20A circuits are being installed for GP outlets, and kitchens are also usually wired with 120V 20A.
Not all 240V outlets are 30A. In the home, they can be 15 or 20A (for window A/C),
to 50A, for a range (AKA Cooker). 30A is typically used for dryers.

The recepticals have a U shaped hole, Moulded plugs have a round prong, whilst
add-on plugs usually have a U shaped ground
prong. Also, the neutral slot is wider, for polarization of plugs without ground prongs.
In that case, usually the neutral prong is wider only at the end.

Classicsat,

What is the ruling on 240V 15 or 20A sockets in the domestic environment in Canada? In the US, NEC 210-6(a)(2) prevents receptacles (in dwelling units) with >120V between conductors supplying loads less than 1440VA or 1/4hp. How this is applied in practice I cannot imagine.


[This message has been edited by Hutch (edited 07-31-2003).]

It is 1200 W max for a single appliance. Even though the circuit is designed to carry 15 A x 120 V = 1.8 kW, it is not desirable that a single appliance take up the entire 1.8 kW.

Consider that multiple outlets or whole rooms in a house may share the same fused connection. If someone was using a 1.8 kW hair dryer and had a light going and maybe a music system, the circuit would be overloaded and hopefully the protective device would open the circuit. However, this would be an inconvenience to the user if he/she had to use his/her appliance in the dark.

Is there such limits in Europe? I know that on a 240 V European system, a product designed for the same power as an American product but for 240 V will draw only 50 % of the current. Thus, a 15 A system should be able to handle twice as much current load as the equivalent American system. Also, the I^2R loss in European systems is 25 % of American, thus less chance of wires overheating. Comment?

Ok..... how do i reply to a specific post where I can quote what someone said? The way Classicsat responded to my post.

BTW, he is correct, just a bit more specific then I was.

[This message has been edited by JohnS (edited 08-01-2003).]

John,

You can enclose various codes within square brackets for quoting, italics, bold, etc. There are also ways to insert a link and an image.

Go here for an explanation of UBB codes

You might find the other hints in the General FAQ useful too.

Most of Continental Europe uses receptacles rated at 16A maximum, wired on branch circuits protected at 16 or 20A. (A few places use 10A circuits as well.) Thus each circuit can supply about 3.5kW, which is adequate for most purposes, as they also use dedicated circuits for heavy appliances.

In some places (e.g. France) the code restricts the number of outlets on each branch circuit to help avoid nuisance tripping due to overloads.

Britain does things a rather different way and uses a 30A ring circuits which can provide up to 7.2kW. Each and every plug then carries its own fuse rated up to 13A maximum.

If you do a search on "ring" you'll find a lot of discussion about the pros and cons of this method.

John,

No and yes. [The following applies to Sweden] You can't put more than 100% load on the plugs*, but the circuits can have overcurrent protection which is less than the rating of the socket. Thus, you can plug a 16A appliance into a 10A circuit. Inconvenience is the user's problem, not the codemaker's. I.e. a design issue, not a safety issue.

* Cooker (range) manufacturers cheat a little on this: You will find that the 14kW cookers have 16A plugs on them. (16A at 400V 3-ph equals 10.8kW) The cooker in my home draws about 5kW and is on a 16A single ph. 2.5mm2 circuit. It has never caused any problems.


[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 08-01-2003).]

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 08-01-2003).]

yes i would like to get rid of twin and earth cable,, why cant we use round cable like flex,, flat stiff cable is now old hat as you say..

cliping it neat and straight is a pain in the arse,,

your thoughts??

You can't go to round cable since the ampacity of the round 2.5 mm2 cable is only 19A whereas the flat is 20A. The flatness increases the surface area somewhat.

This became an issue when they introduced the new requirement for at least 20A capacity per "leg" in the ring. The old currency carrying capacity table was based on round cables and would have ruled out rings on 2.5mm2 in some cases. Therefore, they retested the T&E until they got 20A.

Of course, you could also solve it by increasing the temperature rating of the cable.

what i have learned here is that there are probably safer systems than what i deal with in America.

the latest from the (electriaclly speaking) planet of Vermont is to use AFCI's for all living area outlets (an 02' state update)

in effect, aside from an electric range & dryer, a whole house afci protection system.

a few ma but many dinero's are the only difference i see from others here

I think examining the way things are done elsewhere gives one a much better insight into the problems and possible solutions.

Far too many people in this country know little about the wiring systems in other parts of the world and have the "Our system is obviously the best" mentality.

I think the reality is that there are good and bads points to be found the world over.

One thing I've mentioned in the past, but will bring into the discussion again here is the subject of bathroom outlets.

I'm sure that some of my fellow Brits will disagree with what I'm about to say, but I really feel that the IEE should relax its "no sockets in the bathroom" stance. The present rules of allowing only a dedicated xfmr-isolated, low-power shaver receptacle are overly restrictive in my opinion.

People want to be able to use a hair-dryer in a bathroom. It makes sense that they would want to. If there are no outlets in the bathroom, they're just as likely to run an extension to a receptacle in an adjacent hallway or bedroom.

I see no reason why we shouldn't allow a socket in the bathroom, so long as it's coverede by appropriate distance-from-tub rules and provided with GFI/RCD protection. We could even stipulate an American-style 6mA trip for such outlets instead of the usual 30mA used here.

You could go a step further:

Make it splash proof Like an indoor version of a garden socket.

Or if they really want to get fussy make a special 110V (~50V per leg centre tapped trasnformer) outlet, like in building sites available in the bathroom.

They could create a few jobs for people making bathroom only hairdriers

I think going back to the way things were done in the 1930s wouldn't be a great idea though :

My grandmother's bathroom has one big round black 16amp schuko style socket right over the mirror by the sink! (Prob. installed as a DIY job) Originally protected by a 16amp Diazed fuse and nothing else and after almost 50 years of drying her hair at the sink it was finally disconnected in a rewire! and she's still very much alive

Above the socket is an old style 1-bar bathroom heater which would have been plugged into this socket.. she'd have plugged it out to dry her hair.


[This message has been edited by djk (edited 08-02-2003).]

Of if they really felt so inclined, they could specify a center-tapped 240V xfmr so that there's only 120V to ground in there but existing 240V dryers can be used.

OK Paul, I'll jump in here to disagree on the bathroom socket issue.
What percentage of your customers request 13A sockets in the bathroom?
The usual British reaction to mains voltage bathroom sockets seen when overseas on holiday is one of horror.
I have only been asked to install a 13A socket in a bathroom once, the lady making the request was German & had just moved to Scotland.

It is my experience that most Brits accept the idea that 240V portable equipment, such as hairdryers etc. should not be used in the bathroom, myself included. We have grown up with the idea that sockets are not allowed, and most people quite happily use hair care products in the bedroom.
Do you really want to encourage women to spend more time in the bathroom?

Seriously though, the average British bathroom is the size of a postage stamp, it would be difficult to keep portable equipment away from the restricted zones. I don't think the average hairdryer sold in the UK has any IP coding making it suitable for damp locations either and you would also find people routinely taking tv's, radios etc into the bathroom.
I don't think the idea of using 240V CTE with 120V to earth would be an acceptable solution either, US members will confirm that 120V can kill also. Obviously the risk would be much less with a high sensitivity (10mA or less) RCD, but I am still with the official IEE/BSI view on this one.

I don't see why you need a hairdryer in the bathroom it's not the most comfortable place to do that kind of thing.

Isn't it much easier to work at a dressing table? More light, a comfy seat, more mirrors etc etc.

I am strongly in favour of sticking with the current regime. No sockets at all, other than correctly rated isolating transformer shaver sockets.

It's also illegal under irish wiring regulations to install any kind of light switch in a bathroom other than a ceiling mounted string operated switch which has to be out of reach of the shower/bath etc.

Also no fans, light fittings etc operating at 220V can be within arms reach of the bath/shower. Arms reach = the reach of a 6ft 6 guy!.

It's normal practice to have the light switches (& fan switches) located outside the bathroom. I really don't see it as that inconvienient. How often do you need to switch on/off the light while in the bathroom?!

If you're completely determined to dry your hair in the bathroom there is one sollution:

There's a hairdryer available that has a base unit that mounts high up the wall away from the sink.

The user dries his/her hair via a tube so no electrical parts come anywhere near the user. It's a bit like a wall mounted inverted (heated) vacuum cleaner!

(Often seen in hotels)

You don't have siblings do you?

Hmm.... Even stricter than here. I've found that many householders are under the impression that only pull-cord light switches are allowed inside a bathroom in Britain, but that's not the case. A regular wall switch is acceptable so long as it's out of reach of the shower or tub.

David,
I agree with you that the majority of British people wouldn't ask for an outlet in a bathroom, because they know that it's "wrong." But as you said yourself, it's because they've grown up with this notion and just accept that "That's the way it is."

NEC requirements aside, let me ask our American friends if they would accept a bathroom without a receptacle? (And not just a low-power one for a shaver.)


The point about the ridiculously small bathrooms in many British houses is well taken, though.

By the way, we know that a bathroom outlet is considered acceptable in most of Europe, but do any of your local codes actually require one?


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 08-04-2003).]

So true...
I have 3 younger brothers and I'd _never_ want a bathroom switch outside the door. It's bad enough having them switch off the light upon walking out of the bathroom while you're in the tub.