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Interesting Observation #92299
03/12/05 09:34 AM
03/12/05 09:34 AM
G
George Little  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
Since the wording in 210.12(B) is a requirement for AFCI protection on the branch circuit installed for the bedroom outlets, we would not be required to protect an outlet if we were just adding an outlet to an existing branch circuit in the bedroom. As the attorney says "What say you?"


George Little
2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
Re: Interesting Observation #92300
03/12/05 10:24 AM
03/12/05 10:24 AM
S
shortcircuit  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 608
massachusetts
210.12(B)...uses the wording "outlets installed"

If you install an "outlet" in a bedroom...AFCI protection is required for the entire branch circuit as you have described.

shortcircuit

Re: Interesting Observation #92301
03/12/05 10:37 AM
03/12/05 10:37 AM
G
George Little  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
That seems to be the issue here. The wording in 210.12(B) is talking about branch circuit(s) installed to supply outlets in bedrooms shall be protected by an AFCI device that protects the entire branch circuit. So it's talking about a branch circuit rule. This is the way it was presented at a recent IAEI seminar code panel session. I personally am still wrestling with it.


George Little
Re: Interesting Observation #92302
03/12/05 02:28 PM
03/12/05 02:28 PM
S
shortcircuit  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 608
massachusetts
Ok george, I just reread the paragraph(210.12(G) 5 times in a row and I can see where some confusion could arise.

But I still interpret it as so...

Branch circuits that supply power to outlets installed shall be AFCI protected.

With the "outlets installed" meaning...the act of installing an outlet...with outlet meaning just as it is described in article 100.

shortcircuit

Re: Interesting Observation #92303
03/12/05 04:56 PM
03/12/05 04:56 PM
G
George Little  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
Okay- I understand how you have interperted this text. Your stress is on "outlets installed." I too see how it could be enforced that way. But, and this is a big but, if we install an outlet and I agree with you I'm sure what an outlet is, the code requires it to be grounded 410.18 for lighting outlets and 406.3 receptacle outlets. There is a whole list of reguirements for GFCI protection for receptacles installed in location itemized in 210.8. When we get t0 210.12 they are talking about installing a circuit to feed the outlets in the bedrooms. It is clear that this circuit is required to have AFCI protection for the entire circuit. There is no wording that says "AFCI protection is required for an existing bedroom circuit." There was some talk about asking for AFCI protection on bedroom circuits when there a Service change involving the breakers feeding the bedrooms but that didn't make it into the code. So the more I think about the issue I can accept the fact that adding an outlet to an existing circuit will not necessarily trigger changing to AFCI protection of the existing circuit. Adding a circuit on the other hand does require AFCI protection.

[This message has been edited by George Little (edited 03-12-2005).]


George Little
Re: Interesting Observation #92304
03/12/05 08:34 PM
03/12/05 08:34 PM
S
shortcircuit  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 608
massachusetts
Keen observation there George...but I question the intent here. Maybe some re-wording here is necessary?

Why stop at allowing only 1 outlet then? Lets rewire the bedrooms on a renovation with the exsisting branch circuits, there-by eliminating the need for the electrician to use AFCI protection at all?

I don't believe this was the intent of 210.12(B)

shortcircuit

Re: Interesting Observation #92305
03/14/05 01:03 PM
03/14/05 01:03 PM
E
energy7  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 58
Oxnard, CA, USA
To break it down:
I believe this is all field judgement call stuff. The intent of the code section is to provide arc hazard protection in sleeping rooms.
New constuction w/ panel that will accept AFCI: arc-fault circuit (easy call)!
New outlet in existing room with 2w NM, no ground, exist. panel that cannot accommodate AFCI-no question: no AFCI.
Everything in between: if there's a way to add AFCI protection to the existing circuit, or to REASONABLY revise wiring so that AFCI protection can be provided to some or all of the room outlets, then require it.
P.S. if we're only adding smoke's to the bedroom, do you require a separate circuit w/AFCI protection for the smokes?

Re: Interesting Observation #92306
03/14/05 01:39 PM
03/14/05 01:39 PM
G
gfretwell  Offline

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,166
Estero,Fl,usa
Does an AFCI require a ground?
The new code does address adding an AFCI to a panel that won't take an AFCI breaker.
210.12(B) exception

[This message has been edited by gfretwell (edited 03-14-2005).]


Greg Fretwell
Re: Interesting Observation #92307
03/14/05 03:34 PM
03/14/05 03:34 PM
R
resqcapt19  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
IL
Greg,
The AFCI will work on a circuit that does not have an EGC, but it will not be near as effective. Much of the time it is the GFP part of the AFCI and not the arc detection circuit itself that opens the circuit. If there is no EGC, it is harder to create a ground fault.
Don


Don(resqcapt19)
Re: Interesting Observation #92308
03/15/05 10:58 AM
03/15/05 10:58 AM
E
eprice  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 64
North Logan, Utah, USA
George,

the phrase "installed in... bedrooms" describes one of two things:

1) the outlets as in "circuits that supply...(outlets installed in ... bedrooms)"

or
2) the circuits as in "circuits installed in bedrooms that supply outlets"

I believe the first one is what is intended, since the phrase is nearest the outlets in the sentence and not separated by a comma. If the panel had intended #2 that's how they would have said it.

Going with #1, if an outlet is installed in a bedroom on a circuit that previously did not supply bedroom outlets, the circuit now does supply a bedroom outlet and must be AFCI protected.

If we were to go with #2 then any circuit installed in a bedroom wall that supplies an outlet, whether the outlet is in the bedroom or not, would require AFCI protection.

Note that the words "installed for" are not in the code wording, rather "installed in"

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