ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Top Posters(30 Days)
Potseal 11
Recent Posts
Dimmable LED 2x4 lay in fixtures
by Potseal. 04/23/17 07:18 PM
Old decora style outlets
by Lostazhell. 04/22/17 07:59 PM
Permit Snafus...AHJs and Contractors Jump in
by gfretwell. 04/22/17 01:11 PM
How do you find a good employee?
by HotLine1. 04/22/17 10:44 AM
Electrode boilers question
by SteveFehr. 04/21/17 08:32 AM
New in the Gallery:
SE cable question
Popular Topics(Views)
234,654 Are you busy
169,347 Re: Forum
162,687 Need opinion
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 72 guests, and 12 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
#92299 - 03/12/05 10:34 AM Interesting Observation  
George Little  Offline
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
Since the wording in 210.12(B) is a requirement for AFCI protection on the branch circuit installed for the bedroom outlets, we would not be required to protect an outlet if we were just adding an outlet to an existing branch circuit in the bedroom. As the attorney says "What say you?"

George Little

2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides

#92300 - 03/12/05 11:24 AM Re: Interesting Observation  
shortcircuit  Offline
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 608
210.12(B)...uses the wording "outlets installed"

If you install an "outlet" in a bedroom...AFCI protection is required for the entire branch circuit as you have described.


#92301 - 03/12/05 11:37 AM Re: Interesting Observation  
George Little  Offline
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
That seems to be the issue here. The wording in 210.12(B) is talking about branch circuit(s) installed to supply outlets in bedrooms shall be protected by an AFCI device that protects the entire branch circuit. So it's talking about a branch circuit rule. This is the way it was presented at a recent IAEI seminar code panel session. I personally am still wrestling with it.

George Little

#92302 - 03/12/05 03:28 PM Re: Interesting Observation  
shortcircuit  Offline
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 608
Ok george, I just reread the paragraph(210.12(G) 5 times in a row and I can see where some confusion could arise.

But I still interpret it as so...

Branch circuits that supply power to outlets installed shall be AFCI protected.

With the "outlets installed" meaning...the act of installing an outlet...with outlet meaning just as it is described in article 100.


#92303 - 03/12/05 05:56 PM Re: Interesting Observation  
George Little  Offline
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
Okay- I understand how you have interperted this text. Your stress is on "outlets installed." I too see how it could be enforced that way. But, and this is a big but, if we install an outlet and I agree with you I'm sure what an outlet is, the code requires it to be grounded 410.18 for lighting outlets and 406.3 receptacle outlets. There is a whole list of reguirements for GFCI protection for receptacles installed in location itemized in 210.8. When we get t0 210.12 they are talking about installing a circuit to feed the outlets in the bedrooms. It is clear that this circuit is required to have AFCI protection for the entire circuit. There is no wording that says "AFCI protection is required for an existing bedroom circuit." There was some talk about asking for AFCI protection on bedroom circuits when there a Service change involving the breakers feeding the bedrooms but that didn't make it into the code. So the more I think about the issue I can accept the fact that adding an outlet to an existing circuit will not necessarily trigger changing to AFCI protection of the existing circuit. Adding a circuit on the other hand does require AFCI protection.

[This message has been edited by George Little (edited 03-12-2005).]

George Little

#92304 - 03/12/05 09:34 PM Re: Interesting Observation  
shortcircuit  Offline
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 608
Keen observation there George...but I question the intent here. Maybe some re-wording here is necessary?

Why stop at allowing only 1 outlet then? Lets rewire the bedrooms on a renovation with the exsisting branch circuits, there-by eliminating the need for the electrician to use AFCI protection at all?

I don't believe this was the intent of 210.12(B)


#92305 - 03/14/05 02:03 PM Re: Interesting Observation  
energy7  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 58
Oxnard, CA, USA
To break it down:
I believe this is all field judgement call stuff. The intent of the code section is to provide arc hazard protection in sleeping rooms.
New constuction w/ panel that will accept AFCI: arc-fault circuit (easy call)!
New outlet in existing room with 2w NM, no ground, exist. panel that cannot accommodate AFCI-no question: no AFCI.
Everything in between: if there's a way to add AFCI protection to the existing circuit, or to REASONABLY revise wiring so that AFCI protection can be provided to some or all of the room outlets, then require it.
P.S. if we're only adding smoke's to the bedroom, do you require a separate circuit w/AFCI protection for the smokes?

#92306 - 03/14/05 02:39 PM Re: Interesting Observation  
gfretwell  Offline

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,069
Does an AFCI require a ground?
The new code does address adding an AFCI to a panel that won't take an AFCI breaker.
210.12(B) exception

[This message has been edited by gfretwell (edited 03-14-2005).]

Greg Fretwell

#92307 - 03/14/05 04:34 PM Re: Interesting Observation  
resqcapt19  Offline
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
The AFCI will work on a circuit that does not have an EGC, but it will not be near as effective. Much of the time it is the GFP part of the AFCI and not the arc detection circuit itself that opens the circuit. If there is no EGC, it is harder to create a ground fault.


#92308 - 03/15/05 11:58 AM Re: Interesting Observation  
eprice  Offline
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 64
North Logan, Utah, USA

the phrase "installed in... bedrooms" describes one of two things:

1) the outlets as in "circuits that supply...(outlets installed in ... bedrooms)"

2) the circuits as in "circuits installed in bedrooms that supply outlets"

I believe the first one is what is intended, since the phrase is nearest the outlets in the sentence and not separated by a comma. If the panel had intended #2 that's how they would have said it.

Going with #1, if an outlet is installed in a bedroom on a circuit that previously did not supply bedroom outlets, the circuit now does supply a bedroom outlet and must be AFCI protected.

If we were to go with #2 then any circuit installed in a bedroom wall that supplies an outlet, whether the outlet is in the bedroom or not, would require AFCI protection.

Note that the words "installed for" are not in the code wording, rather "installed in"

Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Member Spotlight
Bay Area
Posts: 61
Joined: August 2007
Show All Member Profiles 

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

Shout Box
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.016s Queries: 15 (0.003s) Memory: 0.8213 MB (Peak: 0.9971 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-04-24 21:09:38 UTC