ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Top Posters(30 Days)
Potseal 10
Recent Posts
Old decora style outlets
by Lostazhell. 04/22/17 07:59 PM
Dimmable LED 2x4 lay in fixtures
by gfretwell. 04/22/17 01:14 PM
Permit Snafus...AHJs and Contractors Jump in
by gfretwell. 04/22/17 01:11 PM
How do you find a good employee?
by HotLine1. 04/22/17 10:44 AM
Electrode boilers question
by SteveFehr. 04/21/17 08:32 AM
New in the Gallery:
SE cable question
Popular Topics(Views)
234,487 Are you busy
169,144 Re: Forum
162,495 Need opinion
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (sparkyinak), 57 guests, and 8 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#91596 - 01/25/05 01:16 AM Outdoor receptacle  
George Little  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
I've been noticing that the Generac generators (sold at Home Depot and others) have a 120v. 15a. duplex receptacle on the end of the outdoor enclousure that is GFCI protected and has a cover on the receptacle that is weatherproof only when the attachment plug cap is unplugged. Based on the '02 NEC this is a code violation. 406.8(B)(1)
This is a case of a UL Listed piece of equipment violating the Code. How would you correct this violation if I wrote it quoting the above mentioned reference?


George Little

2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides

#91597 - 01/25/05 01:21 AM Re: Outdoor receptacle  
nesparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 642
omaha,ne
The generator assembly comes from the manufacturer that way. If it is not modified then the NEC does not apply to it. As long as the equipment is suitable for it's intended use and complies with the UL standard is was manufacturerd under, you can only accept or reject the entire unit.


ed

#91598 - 01/25/05 05:44 PM Re: Outdoor receptacle  
George Little  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
Quote
If it is not modified then the NEC does not apply to it.
I'm not sure you are correct. The NEC applies to all installations I inspect. The issue is here that the manufacturer is building a piece of equipment that is not code compliant and UL is listing it. What would be wrong with changeing the cover on the duplex receptacle?


George Little

#91599 - 01/25/05 05:48 PM Re: Outdoor receptacle  
safetygem  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 119
Ohio, USA
George,
I would say that the manufacturer intended that all equipment used with the generator be "attended." Typically that would be the case for most applications.

If, however, this type of generator were used to power "unattended" equipment in an outdoor location, then IMO your interpretation of the NEC would be correct.


#91600 - 01/25/05 06:07 PM Re: Outdoor receptacle  
Anonymous
Unregistered

No disrespect here George, But I am really glad you never inspected any of my jobs. [Linked Image]

With your logic I wonder why your not taking stoves, dryers, A.C. equipment etc etc and checking wire size for NEC compliance.

I also wonder how you consider a portable generator as part of an "installation".


#91601 - 01/25/05 06:44 PM Re: Outdoor receptacle  
George Little  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
I don't inspect cord connected appliances for code compliance but I do think that a permanent installation of a generator should comply with the code. As to the attended or unatended issue the code says both need an "in-use" cover for outdoor receptacles.406.8(B)(1) I will be addressing this issue with UL and Generac so stay tuned.


George Little

#91602 - 01/25/05 11:16 PM Re: Outdoor receptacle  
Speedy Petey  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 173
Upstate, NY
Sorry but I am with Kent on this one.

If the appliance is UL listed you have no say as to it's legality. As a unit it is perfectly legal, it's intended use is dry/damp locations. If someone mis-uses it it is their problem. If you really wanted you could apply for a job with OSHA and write up people for using their gensets in the rain.

Also, since when is this type of generator "installed". A Gen-Tran panel is a different story.

Also, 406.8(B)(1) states "...receptalces installed outdoors in a wet location...". The receptacles is not "installed" outdoors. It is installed on a portable device.

At the same time you can say just using the generator in a wet location is a code violation since you are not supposed to subject a generator to rain or direct weather. Since this is the case the receptacle on the generator is considered a damp location, not wet.


George, you are actually going to bring this up with UL and Genreac?


Speedy Petey

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new." -Albert Einstein

#91603 - 01/25/05 11:43 PM Re: Outdoor receptacle  
George Little  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
Well guys, I sticking to my story on this one. Maybe you would agree with me if I discribed it a little more. It's a 13kw generator installed like you would an air conditioner condenser. It is anchored to a cement slab and the unit definitely is not a portable. There are no wheels on it and unless you are super human you are not moving it by yourself. The fuel supply is natural gas supplied by the gas utility. It is designed to be used outdoors and is hard wired to a transfer switch panel located in the basement of the home. The duplex receptacle is mounted on the end of the case and has a weatherproof cover that says "Weatherproof only when cord cap is removed" So this unit is designed for outdoor alpplications. The receptacle is only live when the generator is running. Unit measures about 48"x30"x24" (sorry no metrics)
And yes, I'm contacting UL. If I'm wrong I'll say so. I'm a big boy.


George Little

#91604 - 01/26/05 09:20 PM Re: Outdoor receptacle  
HLCbuild  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 209
Herndon,Va USA
George,
From what you have described, I'd agree with you that the generator is definately fastened in place. It seems the hard-wired transfer switch is also a permanent installation. But I'd have to believe the receptacle is only going to be used while attended. If it is only hot when the generator is running, it seems that a permanently unattended cord plugged into it would serve no purpose. If I were going to plug something in and leave it unattended for any lenght of time, I'd want it hot all the time. It really seems this receptacle is for unattended use. We are still fumbling around in the '99 code here in VA so it would be legal here.


#91605 - 01/26/05 10:27 PM Re: Outdoor receptacle  
PCBelarge  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 681
Dobbs Ferry, NY, USA
Take heed George, I agree with you [Linked Image].
This piece of equipment from your discription is a permanent installation, and is outdoors. It is not a portable piece of equipment as Kent seems to think - easy does it Kent [Linked Image]
There is a strong possibility that this equipment was manufactured prior to this code requirement, and that is why it has been designed that way.

Pierre


Pierre Belarge

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Member Spotlight
HCE727
HCE727
Delaware County, PA, USA
Posts: 186
Joined: November 2005
Show All Member Profiles 
Featured:

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

Shout Box
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.018s Queries: 15 (0.003s) Memory: 0.8159 MB (Peak: 0.9931 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-04-23 15:44:13 UTC