ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Top Posters(30 Days)
Potseal 10
Recent Posts
Old decora style outlets
by Lostazhell. 04/22/17 07:59 PM
Dimmable LED 2x4 lay in fixtures
by gfretwell. 04/22/17 01:14 PM
Permit Snafus...AHJs and Contractors Jump in
by gfretwell. 04/22/17 01:11 PM
How do you find a good employee?
by HotLine1. 04/22/17 10:44 AM
Electrode boilers question
by SteveFehr. 04/21/17 08:32 AM
New in the Gallery:
SE cable question
Popular Topics(Views)
234,485 Are you busy
169,123 Re: Forum
162,490 Need opinion
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 56 guests, and 9 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#88459 - 06/06/04 07:06 PM Bored Holes  
mustangelectric  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 494
Bentonville, AR
Hi,
Does derrating apply to bored holes in studs? Can you run more than one cable through a bored hole? What about fill capacity? Does this apply to bored holes?

I have seen a lot of 1-1/2" holes bored above panels that are filled with NM cables.

Thanks for any replies.

Mustang


Electricity has no respect for ignorance!

2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides

#88460 - 06/06/04 07:43 PM Re: Bored Holes  
stamcon  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 329
So San Francisco CA
The cables need to be stacked or bundled for more than 24" before derating is required.
I don't recall seeing a conductor fill requirement for a bored hole.
I guess it would depend on the length of the bored hole, as to it being considered a "raceway"?

steve

[This message has been edited by stamcon (edited 06-06-2004).]


#88461 - 06/06/04 08:09 PM Re: Bored Holes  
caselec  Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 558
San Jose, CA
Joe posted this proposed change a while back:

Proposal 6-31
Revise Section 310.15(B)(2)(a)

The proposed revision to this section adds a more restrictive requirement to apply ampacity adjustment factors where more than two NM cables containing two or more current-carrying conductors each are bundled together and pass through wood framing members where fire-stopping or draft-stopping material is installed at the penetration. The ampacity adjustment factors specified in Table 310.15(B)(2)(a) would be required to be applied to the current-carrying conductors installed in this manner.


Does this mean that the ampacity of NM conductors need to be adjusted anytime more than 2 cables penetrate the top plate even though its only 3"?

I have never been very concerned about derating multiple NM cables passing through single holes since they are usually not bundled tightly between the holes. The product Dave Nix was showing us was able to get a UL listing for quite a few cables without having to adjust the ampacity. I think there would be more heat in that enclosed raceway than in a stud or joist bay.

Curt


Curt Swartz

#88462 - 06/06/04 09:22 PM Re: Bored Holes  
PCBelarge  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 681
Dobbs Ferry, NY, USA
When conductors pass through a short space, such as a bored hole, can enough heat develop to create a problem? I do not believe so, but that is just my humble opinion.

Pierre


Pierre Belarge

#88463 - 06/07/04 07:38 AM Re: Bored Holes  
earlydean  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 751
Griswold, CT, USA
I and many other building inspectors have always considered cables in bored holes to be bundling. Article 310.15(B)(2)(a) covers bundled cables. Derating is required for more than 3 current carrying conductors. But, if we do the math, and take into account the "small conductor" rules, we find that 4 cables are allowed to be installed in every bored hole. This works for #14, #12 and #10 NM and AC cables, 2 or 3 conductor.
What is maybe more important, is the size and placement of bored holes.
Building code requires that bored holes be a minimum of 2 inches back from the edge of joists and rafters, and 5/8 inch away from the edge of studs. NEC requires nailer plates if the hole is closer than 1-1/4 inch.
Building code also limits the size of the holes in rafters and joists to 1/3 the actual measured size of the joist or rafter. For a 2 x 8 that is a 2-1/2 inch hole, for a 2 x 10 that is a three inch hole. Again the holes have to be kept at least 2 inches away from the edges of the joist or rafter. Also, never bore a hole in a truss or engineered lumber.

Earl


Earl

#88464 - 06/07/04 10:21 PM Re: Bored Holes  
stamcon  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 329
So San Francisco CA
Earl, what about the part of 315(b)(2)(a) that states that the cables must be stacked or bundled for more than 24" before derating shall be enforced? Bored holes through wood framing are usually less than 24".

steve


#88465 - 06/08/04 01:08 PM Re: Bored Holes  
macmikeman  Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 717
Honolulu, Hawaii
I would like to ask Earl a question. If you had one 12-2 romex cable loaded to 18 amps going thru drilled holes by itself, or 5 12-2 romex cables going thru the same set of drilled holes where the total load of the 5 cables combined was 18 amps, which situation do you consider more likely to become overheated? I am not trying to be funny with this, I just do not believe bundling of romex in at least residential situations is the problem. The actual problem starts when conductors get overloaded.


#88466 - 06/08/04 06:03 PM Re: Bored Holes  
mustangelectric  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 494
Bentonville, AR
Hi,
Thanks for all the replies. Here is a situation that you may want to consider;

subfloor installation in 10" X 12' X 2" wood, where two 1-1/2" holes are drilled in the center running for 12 feet parallel to each other. Consider a 1-6/3, 1-10/3, 4-12/2, 3-12/3 running through each hole..I would say that this needs to be spread out a little..

I can see the temptation to drill a couple holes instead of 5 or 6 1" holes, but a better installation would be to restrict the number of current carrying conductors to three per hole. I wonder if there is a difference for large holes vs small holes. You can easily get 10 cables through a 1-1/2" bored hole and if it runs for more than 24" parallel bundled together then I would derate the cables.

regards

mustang

[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 06-08-2004).]

[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 06-08-2004).]


Electricity has no respect for ignorance!

#88467 - 06/08/04 06:34 PM Re: Bored Holes  
earlydean  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 751
Griswold, CT, USA
It is MHO and that of many other inspectors I know, that running multiple cables through bored holes more than three consecutive 16" centers rafters, joists or studs constitute bundling. I know, they may flair out just a little between the bored holes, but they are still in close association to one another, and the heat may build-up between them. I am also aware that most cables are not loaded anywhere near to full load, and the likehood of the cables breaking down due to heat build-up is next to nothing. But, we inspectors have to enforce the code as written, not as we think it should be. Just as electricians have to install according to code, not as we think it should be.

Earl


Earl

#88468 - 06/08/04 07:06 PM Re: Bored Holes  
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
Earl that is how the inspectors I have had look at it too.

They will ask for me to break up bundles (MC) in bridal rings spaced 4', 5', 6' apart.


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Member Spotlight
Lostazhell
Lostazhell
Bakersfield, CA (Originally Orange Co.)
Posts: 1,429
Joined: February 2004
Show All Member Profiles 
Featured:

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

Shout Box
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.018s Queries: 15 (0.003s) Memory: 0.8180 MB (Peak: 0.9938 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-04-23 13:57:12 UTC