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#88299 - 05/27/04 05:18 PM AFCI's required for all Living Spaces?  
Joe Tedesco  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,749
Boston, Massachusetts USA
Floor Action at the 2005 NEC adoption in SLC concerning AFCI's to call for their installation for all dwelling living spaces!

I had to leave before the floor action to define "Living Spaces" .... should be interesting when the final results are completed..

PS: The Report of Panels is supposed to be available on the www.necdirect.org sire for downloading in PDF, but have not found it yet. May be put up soon?


Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides

#88300 - 05/27/04 07:05 PM Re: AFCI's required for all Living Spaces?  
BPHgravity  Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 139
Port Charlotte, Florida
Oh Boy! I can't imagine the controversy that would create.

I wonder if they settled on a definition for "kitchen"?


Bryan P. Holland, ECO.
Secretary - IAEI Florida Chapter

#88301 - 05/27/04 07:35 PM Re: AFCI's required for all Living Spaces?  
Ryan_J  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,374
West Jordan, Utah, USA
Quote
I wonder if they settled on a definition for "kitchen"?


Man I sure hope so. That has been a real drag the last two years trying to figure out what a kitchen is versus a "break room" or "serving area"!

BTW: Bryan, didn't you propose something like this for AFCI's? Is this your proposal Joe is talking about?


Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City

#88302 - 05/27/04 08:26 PM Re: AFCI's required for all Living Spaces?  
Joe Tedesco  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,749
Boston, Massachusetts USA
210.8(B)3

ROP 2-85
ROC 2-58

(3) Commercial and Institutional Kitchens. For the purpose of this section kitchen is an area with a sink, food and permanent facilities for food preparation and cooking.

The AFCI Proposal or Comment? was by Walter Smittle from the National Association of State Fire Marshals.

CharlieE was still there before I left so he may be able to help with the living space definition?


Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

#88303 - 05/27/04 08:30 PM Re: AFCI's required for all Living Spaces?  
BPHgravity  Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 139
Port Charlotte, Florida
Quote
Is this your proposal Joe is talking about?


I sure hope not, I get blammed for enough! I feel now that my proposal was a little pre-mature and without much merit. I guess you could say that I like the idea of expanded AFCI use "in principle".

I am also interested in the issue of GFCI protection for receptacles near sink basins in laundry rooms. My proposal (2-49 Log #295) on this was rejected by all but one member. I now hear the requirement is indeed apart of the new code?


Bryan P. Holland, ECO.
Secretary - IAEI Florida Chapter

#88304 - 05/27/04 09:08 PM Re: AFCI's required for all Living Spaces?  
andyp95  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 46
Vermont
AFCI's in all living spaces has been in effect in VT since 2002.There is no definition in the VT ammend. for "living space" but Generally AHJ's are requiring Living rooms ,dining rooms ,bedrooms (of course per NEC).But not bathrooms or kitchens. Why not?? I don't know.

edit: it was 2001 a year before the Nec code went into effect.

[This message has been edited by andyp95 (edited 05-27-2004).]


#88305 - 05/28/04 12:30 PM Re: AFCI's required for all Living Spaces?  
Joe Tedesco  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,749
Boston, Massachusetts USA
This was the original Proposal:

[Linked Image]


A comment was sent to:Accept Comment 2-91 and it was so that means that the original proposal has been accepted at least until after the final meeting by the NFPA Standards Council.


Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

#88306 - 05/29/04 09:22 AM Re: AFCI's required for all Living Spaces?  
CharlieE  Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 200
Indianapolis
________________________________________________________________
2-87a Log #CC200 NEC-P02 Final Action: Accept
(210.12)
________________________________________________________________
Submitter: Code-Making Panel 2
Comment on Proposal No: 2-134a
Recommendation: Revise 210.12 to read:
“210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.
(A) Definition. An arc-fault circuit interrupter is a device intended to provide protection from the effects of arc faults by recognizing characteristics unique to arcing and by functioning to de-energize the circuit when an arc fault is detected.

(B) Dwelling Unit Bedrooms. All 120 volt, single phase, 15 and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination type installed to provide protection of the branch circuit. Branch/Feeder AFCIs shall be permitted to be used to meet the requirements of 210.12(B) until January 1, 2008.

FPN: For information on types of arc-fault circuit interrupters, see UL 1699-1999, Standard for Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupters.

Exception: The location of the arc-fault circuit interrupter shall be permitted to be at other than the origination of the branch circuit in compliance with (1) and (2):

(1) The arc-fault circuit interrupter installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the branch circuit overcurrent device as measured along the branch circuit conductors.

(2) The circuit conductors between the branch circuit overcurrent device and the arc-fault circuit interrupter shall be installed in a metal raceway or a cable with a metallic sheath.”

Substantiation: The panel recognizes the level of safety provided by AFCIs; however, since the combination type technology is relatively new, a transition period has been established for the industry to meet this requirement.

Panel Meeting Action: Accept
Number Eligible to Vote: 13
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 10 Negative: 3
===============================================
This issue was sent back to the panel (see my next post). However, the panel will act on it again, then it goes to the TCC, then to the Standards Council if it is appealed. The new NFPA president pushed this issue in an attempt to sway the vote. When it gets to the panel, this will probably not make it. [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by CharlieE (edited 05-29-2004).]


Charlie Eldridge, Indianapolis Utility Power Guy

#88307 - 05/29/04 09:35 AM Re: AFCI's required for all Living Spaces?  
CharlieE  Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 200
Indianapolis
________________________________________________________________
2-91 Log #510 NEC-P02 Final Action: Reject
(210.12(B))
________________________________________________________________
Submitter: Walter Smittle, National Association State Fire Marshals
Comment on Proposal No: 2-140

Recommendation: Revise to read as follows:
Dwelling Unit Bedrooms. All branch circuits that supply 125-volt, singlephase, 15- and 20-amperes receptacles outlets installed in dwelling-unit bedrooms all living areas shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter(s).

Number Eligible to Vote: 13
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 9 Negative: 4
====================================
This comment was accepted on the floor and sent back to the CMP. IMO, the panel will again reject it and send it to the TCC as reject and the one I just posted will stand. This will be interesting to see how it comes out.


Charlie Eldridge, Indianapolis Utility Power Guy

#88308 - 05/29/04 11:18 AM Re: AFCI's required for all Living Spaces?  
resqcapt19  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
IL
The proposal accepted on the floor does not require the use of "combination type" AFCIs. The current rule and the the rule accepted on the floor permit the use of branch cirucit and feeder types of AFCIs(the only type currently available). This type of AFCI provides only limited protection beyond the outlet. The rule accepted by CMP 2 requires the use of the much more effective combination type AFCIs after 1/1/08. Note the the proposal only requires AFCI protection for receptacle outlets. Also note that the section heading still reads "Dwelling Unit Bedrooms". Can the scope of the section be expanded by putting the words "all living areas" with in the section?
Don


Don(resqcapt19)

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