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#85695 - 07/30/03 08:36 PM New GFCIs aren't quite what we thought?  
Bill Addiss  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,878
NY, USA
There's an article in the July EC magazine that talks about the new GFCI construction requirements. I was surprised to read that if these are miswired the button will pop out and they will not reset, (as we expected) but they will be energized?

Bill


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#85696 - 07/30/03 09:30 PM Re: New GFCIs aren't quite what we thought?  
txsparky  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 552
Magnolia,.Texas U.S.A.
They remain energized just like the old style? [Linked Image] ( except the old style would reset )


Donnie

#85697 - 07/30/03 09:40 PM Re: New GFCIs aren't quite what we thought?  
Bill Addiss  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,878
NY, USA
Donnie,

Yes, that's what it seems to say ... [Linked Image]
I guess you're supposed to notice the button is popped out and realize something might be wrong, but if the outlet works is 'Joe Average' going to know or care?

Bill


#85698 - 07/30/03 10:26 PM Re: New GFCIs aren't quite what we thought?  
ThinkGood  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,081
Milwaukee, WI
Here is the article: http://www.ecmag.com/editorial_detail.aspx?id=749

One of the "three of the most important changes in the certification objectives" is:

Quote
Stopping power if the devices are improperly wired, although the receptacles will still work. GFCIs currently give no hints if they are not operating properly.


[Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image]


#85699 - 07/31/03 05:37 AM Re: New GFCIs aren't quite what we thought?  
pauluk  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
Norfolk, England
I don't think I've ever looked closely at an American GFCI receptacle.

How are the two sets of terminals labeled? Line and load?


#85700 - 07/31/03 07:13 AM Re: New GFCIs aren't quite what we thought?  
ThinkGood  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,081
Milwaukee, WI
Paul:

Exactly. In fact, the ones made by Leviton have a yellow warning label over the load terminals, to help prevent miswiring.


#85701 - 07/31/03 09:54 AM Re: New GFCIs aren't quite what we thought?  
JBD  Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 599
WI, USA
I think it would be very cost prohibive if not physically impossible to manufacture a GFCI that would disconnect the receptacle face as a result of mis-wiring.

The block diagram for a properly wired device is similar to:

[incoming power]->[Line terminal]->[GFCI sensing]->[power disconnect]->[receptacle face]->[load terminals]->[down stream devices]

On a miswired receptacle the power is applied to the "load" terminals and therefore directly to the receptacle face. To prevent this from happening a second set of disconnect contacts would be required after the receptacle face. A possible block diagram would then be:

[incoming power]->[load terminal]->[power disconnect]->[receptacle face]->[power disconnect]->[GFCI sensing]->[line terminals]->[down stream devices]

The all but failsafe solution: use GFCI breakers instead.


#85702 - 07/31/03 10:00 AM Re: New GFCIs aren't quite what we thought?  
ccdave  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 59
culver city,calif. usa
I'm seeing alot of trip indicator lites on these but don't know if it shows miswiring or not.


#85703 - 07/31/03 11:39 AM Re: New GFCIs aren't quite what we thought?  
Bill Addiss  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,878
NY, USA
JBD,

I'm sure it's not as simple as it sounds, most things aren't. [Linked Image]

It's a surprise to me though, I assumed claims that it 'would not reset' had something to do with denergizing the receptacle so it couldn't be used if there was no GFCI protection. Didn't everyone think that would be the case?

Bill


#85704 - 07/31/03 02:20 PM Re: New GFCIs aren't quite what we thought?  
C-H  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,497
Stockholm, Sweden
This sounds like the GFCI receptacles are single pole breaking only.

GFCI receptacles here in Sweden (and presumably in all of Europe) are double pole breaking. Portable GFCI's are also double pole breaking. (It can be turned either way in the receptacle and fits both grounded and ungrounded receptacles.)

How much does a GFCI receptacle cost in the US? A portable GFCI?


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