ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Top Posters(30 Days)
Potseal 11
Recent Posts
600 KW 120/208 3 Phase Y protection
by Yooperup. 07/20/17 09:56 AM
Green House wiring
by ghost307. 07/20/17 09:10 AM
1913 American Electrician's Handbook
by Potseal. 07/20/17 08:42 AM
Permit Snafus...AHJs and Contractors Jump in
by HotLine1. 07/18/17 08:06 PM
New in the Gallery:
SE cable question
Popular Topics(Views)
239,164 Are you busy
174,544 Re: Forum
166,984 Need opinion
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (Yooperup), 57 guests, and 9 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
#85681 - 07/28/03 09:54 PM New 2005 NEC Rule: Installations Outdoors in Direct Sunlight  
Joe Tedesco  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,749
Boston, Massachusetts USA
Public Comments may be needed on this Proposal before the closing date:

Quote
(c) Installations Outdoors in Direct Sunlight.

Where feeders or branch-circuits are installed in raceways out-doors on rooftops that are exposed to direct sunlight, the ampacities of Tables 310.16 and 310.18 shall be derated by a factor corresponding to an outdoor ambient temperature, plus 17°C (30°F). [ROP 6–45]




[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 07-28-2003).]


Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides

#85682 - 07/29/03 12:42 PM Re: New 2005 NEC Rule: Installations Outdoors in Direct Sunlight  
C-H  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,497
Stockholm, Sweden
Does the 17°C come from a test or is it taken out of thin air?

Does the same value apply to both Alaska and Florida?

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 07-29-2003).]


#85683 - 07/29/03 04:11 PM Re: New 2005 NEC Rule: Installations Outdoors in Direct Sunlight  
nesparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 642
omaha,ne
Does it matter if you install the work in the summer or winter? Or what ambient temp should you use?


ed

#85684 - 07/29/03 07:03 PM Re: New 2005 NEC Rule: Installations Outdoors in Direct Sunlight  
Joe Tedesco  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,749
Boston, Massachusetts USA
Quote
6-45 Log #2721 NEC-P06
(Table 310-16, Table 310.17, Table 310.18, Table 310.19)

Final Action: Accept in Principle in Part
Submitter: Travis Lindsey, Travis Lindsey Consulting Services

Recommendation:

Add footnote to bottom of all tables cited, as follows:

Where conductors are installed within conduits and exposed outdoors to direct sunlight, add 30 F (17 C) to the expected maximum outdoor temperature to determine the ambient temperature.

Substantiation:

Recent experimentation shows that a significant temperature rise can be expected for any conductor within a conduit installed outdoors in direct sunlight.

Data indicates that a rise of 30 F (17 C) can be expected for bright metal conduits in direct sun.

Where this temperature rise is disregarded it could lead to overloaded conductors.

Currently NEC does not address temperature rise from solar exposure.

Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Principle in Part

Add a new 310.15(B)(2)(c) to read as follows:

"Installations Outdoors in Direct Sunlight.

Where feeders or branch-circuits are installed in raceways outdoors on rooftops which are exposed to direct sunlight, the ampacities of Tables 310.16 and 310.18 shall be derated by a factor corresponding to an outdoor ambient temperature, plus 17 degrees C."

Panel Statement:

The panel notes that this information does not apply to Tables 310.17 or 310.19.

The revised wording meets the intent of the submitter, and the new text is more appropriate in a new 310.15(B)(2)(c) rather than in a footnote.

Number Eligible to Vote: 11

Affirmative: 9 Negative: 2 Ballot Results:

Explanation of Negative:

KOMASSA: The submitter's substantiation does not adequately distinguish conduits directly on the roof surface vs supported some
distance above the roof. The tests conducted were not thorough in that they were conducted in Las Vegas but not also in a northern climate. Test data shows a 30°F temperature differential during 3-4 afternoon hours but does not present evidence of degradation of conductor insulation.

The submitter has supplied a detailed technical report, however, the test method is not an approved ANSI or NEMA test procedure for determining conductor derating due to direct sunlight on the raceway.

LIGGETT: This proposal should have been rejected. The testing was not conducted on all conduit installation methods on rooftops.

Not all conduits are installed within 1/2 in. of the rooftop. Conduits installed a distance greater than 1/2 in. may not be impacted as the ones tested. Sufficient testing has not been performed and test data has not been provided to require the change for all conduits on rooftops where exposed to direct sunlight. The wording proposed by the panel would require derating where it is unnecessary.


Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

#85685 - 07/29/03 08:10 PM Re: New 2005 NEC Rule: Installations Outdoors in Direct Sunlight  
ThinkGood  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,081
Milwaukee, WI
http://www.keno.org/vws/weather_records_2.htm

Seems it's hit -2°F in Florida, and -100°F in Alaska [Linked Image]


#85686 - 07/29/03 08:37 PM Re: New 2005 NEC Rule: Installations Outdoors in Direct Sunlight  
Bjarney  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,527
West-Southern Inner-Northeast ...
So this proposal requires "derating" for the top four feet of a branch circuit that extends above the roof to a package air conditioner?

That's nice in theory, and probably bears further study, but how many failures have resulted from not allowing for this?


#85687 - 07/30/03 01:17 AM Re: New 2005 NEC Rule: Installations Outdoors in Direct Sunlight  
elecbob  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 141
WA
Data indicates that a rise of 30 F (17 C) can be expected for bright metal conduits in direct sun.

What if I paint them so they ain't bright no more?


#85688 - 07/30/03 07:37 AM Re: New 2005 NEC Rule: Installations Outdoors in Direct Sunlight  
ga.sparky56  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 558
young harris georgia usa
I would second Bjarney's question how many failures have resulted from this type of installation?

I've seen rigid conduit risers on OH services get so hot you couldn't handle them w/o gloves. And the're on the wall!


Russell


#85689 - 07/30/03 01:31 PM Re: New 2005 NEC Rule: Installations Outdoors in Direct Sunlight  
resqcapt19  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
IL
Note that the panel left the words "maximum expected" out of the final wording. This makes the section worthless.
Don


Don(resqcapt19)


Member Spotlight
watersparkfalls
watersparkfalls
Washington...Not DC
Posts: 216
Joined: March 2005
Show All Member Profiles 
Featured:

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

Shout Box
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.014s Queries: 14 (0.002s) Memory: 0.8039 MB (Peak: 0.9711 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-07-20 14:31:55 UTC