ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Shout Box
Recent Posts
VDE 0100 to introduce AFCIs
by LongRunner. 01/17/18 10:32 AM
Fujifilm Recalls Power Adapter Wall Plugs
by Admin. 01/16/18 07:04 PM
Air Compressor feeder conductor sizing
by Potseal. 01/15/18 09:08 PM
Under carpet cable?
by HotLine1. 01/15/18 09:57 AM
New in the Gallery:
Housebilding DIY wiring
SE cable question
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 26 guests, and 7 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Can you upgrade wire to 90C ? #85639
07/25/03 08:44 PM
07/25/03 08:44 PM
Bill Addiss  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,888
NY, USA
I know we've kicked this around a few times already, but I figure some new information is bound to show up sooner or later. [Linked Image]

Is there anything on the market that will 'upgrade' the temperature rating of conductors? I'm referring to situations where a Fixture, sorry, Luminaire is being replaced and the wiring in the ceiling box is an older 60C or 75C type.

In 'Your Old Wiring' by David Shapiro he mentions (box on pg 292) that in his other book he describes "a specialty product for upgrading their ratings" (temperature ratings of conductors)
Does anyone know what that would be?

Bill

2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
Re: Can you upgrade wire to 90C ? #85640
07/25/03 09:44 PM
07/25/03 09:44 PM
R
Redsy  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,056
Bucks County PA
Go to "mcmastercarr.com".
Look for electrical insulating sleeving.
catalog page 686.
That is what the book I have refers to.
I use it when I have to.

[This message has been edited by Redsy (edited 07-25-2003).]

Re: Can you upgrade wire to 90C ? #85641
07/25/03 10:02 PM
07/25/03 10:02 PM
Bill Addiss  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,888
NY, USA
Redsy,

Thanks!
Would this be an AHJ approved method for installing a newer fixture to older 60C or 75C wiring?

Is this a heat-shrink type of thing? Or if not, what would keep it in place?
Quote
Fiberglass Sleeving

An excellent secondary insulator for individual wires and bundles of wire, this sleeving provides increased temperature and abrasion resistance while remaining highly flexible. Insulates up to 7000 volts. All are UL recognized and CSA certified.

Vinyl Coated— Resists waxes, alcohols, petroleum solvents, esters, and many alkalies and acids. Color is black. Temperature range is -4° to +266° F. Meets UL VW-1 as self extinguishing.

Silicone Rubber Coated— Maintains excellent flexibility throughout its temperature range, resists ozone and weathering, and will self extinguish, leaving a nonconductive white ash. Temperature range is -94° to +392° F. Meets UL VW-1 as self extinguishing. To Order: Please specify color: black or white.

Expandable Rubber Coated— Expands to twice its relaxed size, providing the superb flexibility needed to snugly fit over irregular-shaped objects. Excellent abrasion, chemical, and moisture resistance. Temperature range is -67° to +392° F. To Order: Please specify color: black or white.


[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 07-25-2003).]

Re: Can you upgrade wire to 90C ? #85642
07/26/03 05:48 AM
07/26/03 05:48 AM
W
walrus  Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 680
Bangor Me. USA
They send that type of sleeving in some lights I've installed. Its only been about 6 or 8 inches long so it barely covers the feeders. The stuff is about 1/4 to 3/8 inside dia. so it doesn't stay in place on #12. It does protect the wire in the lights I've been into afterwards.

Most installers throw it away [Linked Image]

Re: Can you upgrade wire to 90C ? #85643
07/26/03 04:01 PM
07/26/03 04:01 PM
B
Bjarney  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,527
West-Southern Inner-Northeast ...
In some cases, acrylic- or silicone-impregnated woven glass-fiber sleeving can be used to cover conductors in ceiling boxes where heat has hardened or cracked thermoplastic or thermoset wire insulation. Cover entire exposed/affected/damaged length of conductor, extending well past the point of undamaged material.

http://www.suflex.com/pdfs/AcryflexMR%20DataSheet.pdf http://www.varflex.com/NewFiles/varfprodline.html

Colored conductor identification may no longer be visible. If fastening is needed, consider Scotch#27 tape. Expect repairs to be time-consuming, fragile, dirty and tedious work.




[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 07-26-2003).]

Re: Can you upgrade wire to 90C ? #85644
07/26/03 10:16 PM
07/26/03 10:16 PM
R
Redsy  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,056
Bucks County PA
Bill,
I've used it a few times, in an emergency, and every time, I wonder if it is a legitimate fix. I'm fairly comfortable with it though, it's inexpensive and it's good to have some on the truck, but it is indeed a second choice.
It is not heat-shrinkable. Slip it on back to the jacket, and the wire-nuts will prevent it from coming off. It comes in a range of diameters. If you buy some, note that it is sized based on bare conductor gauge.
If you want it to fit over NM cable with insulation, you'll need to order 2 or 3 wire sizes larger.

[This message has been edited by Redsy (edited 07-26-2003).]

Re: Can you upgrade wire to 90C ? #85645
07/26/03 10:53 PM
07/26/03 10:53 PM
T
ThinkGood  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,081
Milwaukee, WI
So just to clarify (again), the temperature rating for the conductors is based on an external source of heat, such as a lightbulb, and not heating of the conductor due to the current flow, correct?

Is it possible to splice higher-rated conductors to the lower-rated ones, after shortening the lower-rated ones, and thus have less of a length to protect?

Also, are there any charts/statistics on the temperature based on the wattage of the lightbulb?

Re: Can you upgrade wire to 90C ? #85646
07/26/03 11:02 PM
07/26/03 11:02 PM
Bill Addiss  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,888
NY, USA
Redsy,

Yes, it would be nice to have an answer, but it seem like nobody wants to commit themselves.

Also, I would like to know if the requirement for 90C conductors is just a result of worst case testing conditions and is really not an issue in uninsulated cavities and spaces between floors. I have a feeling that is the case, (because of something I found years ago) but it would be nice to know for sure because many existing fixtures are identical to the ones sold now except for the warning label.

It just seems to me that this is a blanket cya situation for the lighting manufacturers and the 90C wiring would not be necessary in all cases. But because the warning does exist, the liability is passed on to the installer. Most customers don't want to hear that you won't change a simple fixture without replacing the wires. It just puts us in a bad position, it would be real nice to have more detailed information on the hazard itself and what legal options are available.

Bill

Re: Can you upgrade wire to 90C ? #85647
07/27/03 11:10 AM
07/27/03 11:10 AM
W
walrus  Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 680
Bangor Me. USA
It seems to me to be a CYA for the installer also at least in the case of when they are supplied by manufacturer for a particular light. Of course that doesn't really answer your question of when they are used to retrofit.

Re: Can you upgrade wire to 90C ? #85648
07/27/03 11:26 AM
07/27/03 11:26 AM
Bill Addiss  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,888
NY, USA
walrus,

When they come with a fixture is there anything written anywhere that tells you what they are for and how to use them?

Bill

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Featured:

2017 Master Electrician Exam Preparation Combos
2017 NEC Electrician
Exam Prep Combos:
Master / Journeyman

 

Member Spotlight
akmaster
akmaster
alaska
Posts: 70
Joined: June 2012
Show All Member Profiles 
Top Posters(30 Days)
sparky 23
Admin 20
Potseal 13
Popular Topics(Views)
243,524 Are you busy
180,323 Re: Forum
170,816 Need opinion
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1
(Release build 20180101)
Page Time: 0.028s Queries: 15 (0.004s) Memory: 1.0279 MB (Peak: 1.2036 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2018-01-17 17:47:20 UTC