I would just like to vent just a little. Not for nothing people, but how many contractors out there in the field try to get away with things. Does anyone read the instructions anymore? How many times I have to inspect a job and the last thing I inspect is the panel. How many times I have to fail a job because the breakers aren't labeled, but even more so is that I look at a panel to find 32 circuits in a 30 circuit board. Too many times people try to squeeze in one or 2 more circuits by using "twins" or "Half Size" breakers. All they have to do is read the label on the panel. It will tell you how many circuits are allowed. Several companies will label the panel "12-24" which will allow 12 full size and 24 circuits with using the twin breakers. However if you have a 30-30 panel, then 30 full size breakers are allowed and no twins. Sorry but I just had to fail a contractor this week for this and it realy should not have to happen. I will get off my soap box now. Sorry!
Harold you've a viable concern, and i don't mean to disagree with you, i'd just like to continue the thread with some observations.
you see.... real men don't read instructions, (they make thier wives read 'em) after all, we are all born with the ability to square peg/square hole it 90% of the time, and pass blame to 3rd world sweat shop's the rest....
besides, have you ever seen the look customers have when you read them in thier presence?
i've also noticed how the varied languages instructions of international marketing create generalizations........ usually clear as mud , that is if one can find the english version....
a step further, for those inquisitive or simply confused enough, is to call tech support for specifics.
this initself should be a thread
latley, i've been basing product viability on tech support first and foremost
Harold, It's even worse when electricians (or someone else) add circuits over time. on several occasions, I've actually seen 50+ circuits in a residential panel. Most panels also have a buss diagram that illustrates where minis may and may not be installed.
[This message has been edited by Redsy (edited 05-17-2003).]
This is why we call them Cheater Breakers!I'm sure we all have installed some things that we are not proud of,but you got to do what you to do to get the job done as safely as you can.Hey, sometimes the rules get bent, I don't like it either!
I agree with you Harold. I agree with you Zapped. What? Ok the rules are there for a reason. BUT. As zapped said sometimes you have to do what you have to do. I use these breakers and I don't see an issue with installing a few extra circuits over the limit. I know it's a violation but I also know that in a 200 amp panel that is loaded to maybe 50 amps on a good day, there is no safety issue at all. Sorry Harold!
Harold I know that you used to run your own business. I'll bet that you had service calls and job bids that the owner did not have tje money, or was unwilling to pay for doing a job completly by code. So like almost all of us you made a judgement call and gave them the safest product you could. We all have this come up from time to time. I agree with Electricmanscott.
[This message has been edited by nesparky (edited 05-24-2003).]
Gentlemen: As I "see" both sides of the fence, I have to say my 2 cents. Harold, I know what you mean, as I have come across a 42 circuit with 78 in it...damn, they had a real tough time putting the cover on. (It was a commercial job, and the "owners panel")
The Ec said.."we are going to change it out, in the next phase of the renovation"..."there is only 125 amps, per leg +/-" He was right, as he clamped it while I was there. Only problem was that it was "stuffed" to put it mildly. Left him a red sticker, and they corrected it within 10 days. Put in a feed thru, 84 circ, 400 amp, 3 phase, and all was well.
Had a new house insp; 30 circuit with one "twin", poor planning, but not a major situation. EC explained that the jacuzzi circuit "had" to go in the panel. He was up-front, as he could have waited until I gave him the final, and then put in the twin.
I have to say, Harold you are right to the letter of the NEC, no argument. But, how about all the DIY, and un-permitted stuff, although we (you and I) as AHJ's cannot do much about.