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690 conflict? #82934
12/22/02 12:46 PM
12/22/02 12:46 PM
sparky  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,344
Mr. John Wiles hit a nerve this month in his art 690 article where he addresses a safe install.

I have been following an 'alternative' energy company around, wiring homes off grid.

They wire basically the same as any home, the same dedicated circuits, the same demand load, square footage,etc.

However, it occurs to me that the off grid systems will never come close to an actual demand load required per 220.

I cannot find anything in art 690 that would ammend this.

any thoughts here?

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Re: 690 conflict? #82935
12/24/02 11:42 AM
12/24/02 11:42 AM
sabrown  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 302
Ogden, Utah, USA
This is a difficult subject to deal with. I have not read this article, but, I would work closely with your AHJ on this as far as total loading and any decreasing in the numbers of circuits.

As I am both the designer and AHJ in many similar situations (I deal with many offgrid sites, solar and generator, residential and otherwise), I look at the expectations of the occupants and what is practical to provide.

Ask questions about the usage and be prepared to provide answers to your AHJ. What is the main objective for providing the system? What are the additional benefits to be derived from the system? What are the limitations that you are going to design in? In otherwords, electricity at a remote site is a benefit and a blessing and those benefits are limited. Design beyond those limitations is impractical and creates unrealistic expectations.

I have systems that the main purpose for the system is to provide for radio or water pumping with the side benefit of electric lighting only for the occupant. Once limitations are known and understood, design should be to code for those services provided.

So I provide things to code for those purposes, which can overload the power supply system as a whole during long time period usage, but for short time periods is acceptable. Occupants soon learn the limitations of the power system as a whole and if properly protected, the power system will not be harmed by their short learning curve.

If you are providing for a use, provide for that use fully, just know and understand the purpose that you are providing for. If you are providing for receptacle use, know the limitations. A purpose to provide a single general use receptacle should be well understood and limited so that there is no doubt that additional receptacles cannot and will not be added and that use is also well defined and not changed, permanently label that receptacle as to its limitations. To drop things below 220 requirements without this just encourages the improper use of extension cord, etc.

I do have the advantage that any electrical installation or change must be approved by me. Though even amoung our employees, we don't all understand this. But sooner or later, I catch up to the change, aften when they call me to ask why this dosen't work anymore.

So, follow 220 as close as possible on the interior (note: in some cases there are no receptacles provided, just lighting as lighting was the goal for the service to provide) then limit things at the service by properly protecting the power supply.

Mr. Wiles is very respected and well known in the industry, I am sure that the article was right on target for his intended audience.

(A side note: I think I have become very dependant upon spell checkers - I am impressed with those that type without errors and spell checkers)

Re: 690 conflict? #82936
12/24/02 12:17 PM
12/24/02 12:17 PM
sparky  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,344
thank you sabrown,

know that, i'm wiring these places to code with a 100A panel w/100a main per 230.79(C)

the last one has 3 baths,i do dedicated circuits to all... the receptacles are placed per 210.52, all follows code as close as possible.....

there are no single family inspections here, not even an occupancy permit,no AHJ.... anything goes.... you can live like the farm animals here.
(which i suspect is how the 'lobbyist'famers prefer things.....)

so...i've done my part....right?

i have not supplied or installed any 'utility' here, nor have i had a hand in it.....

what burns me up is this 'alternative' energy faction whom are setting up shop in my state are taking advantage of our lax laws.

they simply do what they wish, no NEC need apply.....boneheads , the lot of them!

Re: 690 conflict? #82937
12/24/02 03:56 PM
12/24/02 03:56 PM
George  Offline
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 375
Remember that the NEC is perscriptive. This lets an engineer/designer/AHJ adjust the demand to meet the supply in your case.

Re: 690 conflict? #82938
12/27/02 04:43 PM
12/27/02 04:43 PM
sparky  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,344
George, more like a fairy tale here.....

I've done my part, let the rest be on the heads of the powers-that-ignore here

I have notified them, the politically correct responses simply have made me realise that i am indeed penalized for having a license in this concerns amount to no more than pissin' in the wind....

the hack's are WAY ahead here.......


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