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#82905 - 12/21/02 08:35 PM 408.21  
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,311
Any additional info here appreciated......

Quote
Dear Sirs or Madam;
I have a G3030B1100CU 100amp, 30 circuit panel.
The neutral (or grounded conductor)bar, when isolated from the grounding bar has only 24 terminations.
Is this panel listed to meet NEC 408.21 exception?
(below from the 2002 NEC)


408.21 Grounded Conductor Terminations.
Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.

Exception: Grounded conductors of circuits with parallel conductors shall be permitted to terminate in a single terminal if the terminal is identified for connection of more than one conductor.

Sincerley,
Steve


2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides

#82906 - 12/21/02 09:17 PM Re: 408.21  
Tom  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,044
Shinnston, WV USA
The exception is not very likely to apply here since, generally speaking, paralled conductors must be 1/0 AWG or larger.

Unless you're dealing with some of the exceptions to the paralled conductor rule (unlikey) I don't know why this would come up.

All the fine print on those little labels inside the cabinet need to be read to see if any of the terminals are in fact listed for two conductors.


Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example.

#82907 - 12/21/02 10:17 PM Re: 408.21  
harold endean  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
Boonton, NJ
Sparky,

Sounds like to me that you need one neutral per terminal. It also sounds like someone needs to go out a grounding bar terminal so that they can install the grounding wires. ( In this case they can install 2-3 wires of the same size under one terminal as per the manufactures instructions.)

Harold


#82908 - 12/22/02 12:18 AM Re: 408.21  
watthead  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 172
South Carolina
This panel is made for the average installation which will have some 240v loads on two pole breakers where two spaces only require one neutral connection. In the event that you wanted to use only single pole breakers in the panel you must stop at 24 breakers. Your other choice is to use some multi wire circuits that share the neutral connection. There is usually more than one way to get from point A to point B. What was your reason for needing the exception?


#82909 - 12/22/02 07:37 AM Re: 408.21  
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,311
All,
This panel holds 30 circuits, it has a right & left termination strip of 24 terminations each.
The two bars connect by way of the typical connecting piece that we all remove to have an isolated nuetral bar.

So we are left with a 24 termination bar, not counting larger lug for feeder.....note it comes short of 24 screws, i had to 'borrow' from the grounding bar, being allowed to double up there......

I put 28 circuits into this yesterday, i use very few multiwire circuits due to the # of AFCI's my state requires...

I see NO reason for something marketed as a 30 circuit panel to become uncompliant to the NEC here, sorry folks.....

If the D**m thing is sold as 30 circuit, it should hold 30 circuits, i should not need to search for accessories to make this happen.


the only accesory i see is an IG21 Here in the Siemens page

It really pisses me off to see manufactures stand on the code to promote what they wish, then ignore the finer points when it is convient for them to do so.....


#82910 - 12/22/02 01:06 PM Re: 408.21  
watthead  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 172
South Carolina
The finer points like 110.3(B). I have not seen this panels instruction sheet but, I doubt it shows you how to use half of the neutral assembly as a ground bar. If the panel does not come with a ground bar, you are required to furnish one (and not necessarily the isolated one) to use it as a subpanel. You are way ahead of far to many installers as you seem to know the requirements for grounding the subpanel.


#82911 - 12/22/02 01:28 PM Re: 408.21  
caselec  Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 558
San Jose, CA
I think Virgil mentioned that GE's instructions say you can remove the bar between the 2 neutral busses in their load centers but I don't use GE and have never seen this in any other manufactures instructions. Every loadcenter has a listing for ad on equipment ground bars. The neutral gets bonded through the optional screw that gets installed through the buss into the enclosure so there is no reason to separate these busses. Use both busses for neutrals and ad an additional buss for your equipment grounds.

Curt


Curt Swartz

#82912 - 12/22/02 01:37 PM Re: 408.21  
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,311
yes i can buy a G-bar, no i don't believe i should have to.....i don't think another 6 terminations is much to ask here .

it should have the versitality to be able to sub out.

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 12-22-2002).]


#82913 - 12/22/02 03:01 PM Re: 408.21  
caselec  Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 558
San Jose, CA
Does Siemens specifically say in their instructions that you CAN remove the bar between the 2 neutral busses and use one buss for neutral connections and the other for equipment ground connections? If not I don't think you really have a choice since removing the bar would void the UL listing of the loadcenter.

Now this is just personal opinion but I always install a 2 ground busses (one on each side). Making up the panel is quick and looks much better without all of the equipment grounds and neutrals crossing at the top and bottom.

Curt


Curt Swartz

#82914 - 12/22/02 04:40 PM Re: 408.21  
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,311
well Curt,
i can't seem to located the correct listing here, it would seem a readily removable bar to me, but i've been wrong before.....

it just s***s realizing i may have been wrong for many moons.
[Linked Image]

Steve aka~(crow for din-din again) sparky


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