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lockouts #82543
11/20/02 11:05 PM
11/20/02 11:05 PM
C
Cindy  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 196
PDX, OR, US
for dishwashers some inspectors require lockouts, and some don't, but 422.31(B) says you need them, and some guys that don't want to use them say the dishwasher has a unit switch so don't need them per 422.34

422.31 uses 1/8 horsepower or 300VA to say either a disconnect within sight is needed or a lockout, so i assume this is why you don't need the lockout for the range hood fan, but i've seen some electricians use them

i think 424.19(C) is used the same way for wall heaters so they don't always use lockouts for them saying they have unit switches

do you use them? i'm not sure what a unit switch is. it's not in the definitions

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Re: lockouts #82544
11/21/02 06:22 AM
11/21/02 06:22 AM
S
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,340
My take is that the 'unit switch' is integral to the unit, and does not usually accept LOTO, therefor some sort of disco that accepts one is required.

in the dish/pigs case a male cord cap under the sink complies, or i guess the OCPD within sight would also.

Interestingly enough, larger motorized appliances are suspect,( via 430..) but larger resistive ones are not as a range could be hardwired.

Re: lockouts #82545
11/22/02 06:17 AM
11/22/02 06:17 AM
S
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,340
further conjecture ......

422.34 and the stipulations for 'other' disco via (A)(B)(C)(D).
which i take as the OCPD......

note (C),One Family Dwelling's permissive Service Disco vs. 422.31(B) 'within sight'.

assuming most single family's service disco is not in the kitchen, comes the quagmire, so the availability of a LOTO disco ( per last sentence of 422.31(B) is needed for compliance....

so....


does a male cordcap/receptacle under sink have a LOTO ??
[Linked Image]

Re: lockouts #82546
11/22/02 10:16 AM
11/22/02 10:16 AM
T
txsparky  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 552
Magnolia,.Texas U.S.A.
Sparky.
The cord cap/receptacle scenario would probably have to include one of these @ $33 ea.(+ OR -)plus the cost of the lock.
[Linked Image]


Donnie
Re: lockouts #82547
11/22/02 02:15 PM
11/22/02 02:15 PM
S
Scotts  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 209
Ventura, CA, USA
First of all I must say to forgive my ignorance. I am stronger on the OSHA side of things than the NEC side.

OSHA has a provision in LOTO that if it is a cord operated machine, and you are in sole possession of the cord, you do not have to lock out the machine. So if you are working on a dishwasher and you unplug it, do the work, and then plug it back in you are in compliance with OSHA. However you cannot leave the dishwasher while you are working on it. If you did leave the dishwasher then you would have to lock it out.

Unfortunately I am in California and Cal/OSHA does not have this provision. All machines must be locked out when they are being serviced. Even if you remove the fuses you have to lock the fuse box.

Like I said this is from the OSHA side of things. You need to check if your state has it's own OSHA, 23 state have their own OSHA programs, and see what their provisions for LOTO are. In fact in CA it is not called LOTO, it is called Lock Out Block Out.

Sorry for being so wordy.
Scott

Re: lockouts #82548
11/22/02 05:07 PM
11/22/02 05:07 PM
S
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,340
much obliged txsparky & Scotts

Scotts,
there are some AHJ's that will require a s.p. switch for dishwashers & sometimes compactors in a kitchen.

said switch(s) are then redundant to the homeowner as the units have integral switches, so it goes over somewhat badly there.... [Linked Image]

the crux being the ability to LOTO ( or LOBO in CA.) is what i beleive to be the central issue here...

has anyone else had this experience?
[Linked Image]

btw,
the ability to LOBO a complete panel via the door , to my knowledge, is somewhat suspect per current codes....'individual' come s to mind.....
[Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 11-22-2002).]

Re: lockouts #82549
11/22/02 06:28 PM
11/22/02 06:28 PM
S
Scotts  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 209
Ventura, CA, USA
Sparky,
True True True.

Like I said I know more about OSHA than the NEC. Does the NEC have a provison for LOTO? I am not at work right now or I would look it up.

To paraphrase what you said, all new equipemtn installed has to have the ability for LOBO. At least in an industrial setting.

I would not think that locking the panel door would be sufficient for LOBO. First what if there is a problem and you need to get in the panel fast to throw a different breaker in the panel. Also, at least Cal/OSHA would take the interpretation that someone could remove the panel cover and flip the breaker. They are a lot of fun. As I explained it to the people in our plant. When a machine is locked out it must be physically impossible to restart the machine without removing the lock. At least under Cal/OSHA.

BTW. Has anyone found any good lockouts for breakers. We have about every type you could think of and we have not found any good ones yet.
Scott


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