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#80924 - 06/11/02 08:51 PM Where's the line?  
sparky66wv  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,236
West Virginia
This is mainly a curiosity Q...

Saw an excavating outfit laying 3" and 4" electrical grade conduit with sweeps along the highway. Plus the service laterals are laid in by excavtors at the "big job" *cough* Greenbrier *cough*. They even install the sweep and riser (sched 80, sometimes...) in most of the jobs (we'll do our own, thanks...)

My questions are:

When is work considered "electrical work"?

Can non-electrician sub-contractors do the trenching?

... lay the conduit? (number of bends, proper gluing, arranging to drain, etc. in question here)

...place the pull rope?

...pull the wire?

Just where is the "line" that seperates electrical work from work that doesn't require electrical licensing?

I'm sure this differs by location, so just give me what the standard is in your area, and any codes, rules or standards that you may be aware of...

Allow me to add that, for sake of argument, let's ignore the fact that the PoCo doesn't fall under the same rules, and pretend that I'm talking sub-feeders (post meter feeders)...

Thanks!

-Virgil

PS: No, I'm not going tattle or "become a trouble maker" as it was so eloquently put to me today...

[Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 06-11-2002).]


-Virgil
Residential/Commercial Inspector
5 Star Inspections
Member IAEI

2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides

#80925 - 06/11/02 10:09 PM Re: Where's the line?  
arseegee  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 324
Statesboro, GA USA
If I understand your question, this could fall under the PoCos jurisdiction which does not have to conform to NEC. My PoCos sub out all this stuff. Had utility sub change out xfmrs for an upgrade and come back with 1/0al for a 600amp service. Guess they know somthing I don't.


#80926 - 06/11/02 11:19 PM Re: Where's the line?  
nesparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 642
omaha,ne
We see several non-electrical contractors do this all the time. Most are boring for telco and cable service, but some lay in power conduits also. Usually the poco of an electrical contractor pull the wire for power. The telco and cable has almost anybody pull the wire or fiber.
As long as it works and is safe the inspectors pass it by.
The inspector will check to see if a permit has been pulled for secondaries - only ECs there.


ed

#80927 - 06/12/02 12:23 AM Re: Where's the line?  
sparky66wv  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,236
West Virginia
Once again, please ignore the fact that the Power Company does not have to comply, and let's assume I'm talking about feeders that would be in the jurisdiction of the 2002 National Electrical Code, NFPA 70.

What are they allowed to do and what aren't they allowed to do?

[Linked Image]

Here, I hire out the trenching and backfill only, and after I mark the path to ensure less than 360ยบ of bends. For feeders, I'll lay the conduit, blow the mouse, pull the rope then pull the feeders. In laterals, the PoCo pulls the feeders and I do all but the trenching and backfill.

I've seen too many unglued pipe joints, sched 40 where 80 should be, more than 4 90's, no straps on the riser, large sharp stones, etc. etc...

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 06-12-2002).]


-Virgil
Residential/Commercial Inspector
5 Star Inspections
Member IAEI

#80928 - 06/12/02 02:09 AM Re: Where's the line?  
caselec  Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 558
San Jose, CA
Here in California the excavating is usually done by a General Engineering Contractor but thy will often install the electrical conduit, water, gas and sewer piping. Since they are following plans drawn by the electrical contractor or engineer there is no real need for them to have any electrical skills to glue pipe together.


Curt Swartz

#80929 - 06/12/02 06:49 AM Re: Where's the line?  
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,311
Here there is no one to define said line but me. If i don't like it, i don't energize it. I am the one who ultimatley is liable ( yeah, all other 'subs' will point to me..)

As such, i have 'got into it' with a number of excavators, who assume ( key word) that i will 'make work' whatever configuration they leave me. I have had to stand my ground,and have lost biz to this. A common line i use in said confrontations is that i won't dig , if you don't wire. 'Wire' includes anything that a conductor passes thru....

Case in point, i require a pedestal by a residential sewer pump .
Excavators run a 3/4" pvc straight into the tank.....
I won't do ( or stand behind) direct burial SEC's, as some excavators will do and expect me ( as well as the poco) to make good on.
I will not stand behind any direct buried conductor short of a GEC.........

Excavators and I have a fairly shaky relationship.......


#80930 - 06/12/02 02:21 PM Re: Where's the line?  
George  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 375
I am not an electrictian. I get paid to do design, engineering, and all construction except where a license is required (usally electric, plumbing, and HVAC).

No one drills holes or puts in any fasteners (that includes those MN staples) except me. I am not sure where trenches would fall.

--------

I suppose that sparky66wv and I would have a tough time working together.


#80931 - 06/12/02 08:34 PM Re: Where's the line?  
MikeW  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 35
Michigan
I know there are pros and cons concerning unions. But I will say this, in this area on union jobs, the situation sparky mentioned would not be allowed. The electricians would lay the conduit, pull the wires and terminate them. No excavating outfit would be doing electrical work.


#80932 - 06/12/02 11:02 PM Re: Where's the line?  
sparky66wv  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,236
West Virginia
I suppose that sparky66wv and I would have a tough time working together.

Hunh? What did I say to give you that impression?

(Genuinely interested, no sarcasm involved...)

[Linked Image]

"...there is no real need for them to have any electrical skills to glue pipe together..."

Yes, but, not being water line, the excuse of "why?" will come into play, and it won't be glued at all, then, will come apart during the pull.... I've seen this happen...
and was the one with the shovel digging up someone else's mistake...

GRRR!



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 06-13-2002).]


-Virgil
Residential/Commercial Inspector
5 Star Inspections
Member IAEI

#80933 - 06/13/02 09:41 PM Re: Where's the line?  
George  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 375
No intent to offend spark66wv ---

You appear to not trust others to dig your trenches. If you worked on my jobsite you would not even be present when the trench was dug, the pipe laid, the pipe is inspected, and the trunch is filled. (I supposed you would not like that.)

No offense, you are not a professional with a backhoe.


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