ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Top Posters(30 Days)
Potseal 11
Recent Posts
Dimmable LED 2x4 lay in fixtures
by HotLine1. 04/24/17 05:43 PM
Old decora style outlets
by Lostazhell. 04/22/17 07:59 PM
Permit Snafus...AHJs and Contractors Jump in
by gfretwell. 04/22/17 01:11 PM
How do you find a good employee?
by HotLine1. 04/22/17 10:44 AM
Electrode boilers question
by SteveFehr. 04/21/17 08:32 AM
New in the Gallery:
SE cable question
Popular Topics(Views)
234,676 Are you busy
169,396 Re: Forum
162,714 Need opinion
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 57 guests, and 8 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#74940 - 02/06/07 10:37 PM Disconnect on the secondary of a VFD  
Cinner  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 78
Kelowna, B.C., Canada
Does a motor disconnect need to be before(line side) the Variable Frequency Drive or can it be on the secondary of a VFD?


Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades

#74941 - 02/06/07 11:03 PM Re: Disconnect on the secondary of a VFD  
ElJay  Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 7
Spartanburg, S.C.
It depends on if you want to safely isolate the whole system or just the motor.


#74942 - 02/06/07 11:44 PM Re: Disconnect on the secondary of a VFD  
NJwirenut  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 806
Bergen County, NJ
If there is a switch installed on the motor side, it must NEVER be opened while the motor is running.

The voltage spikes developed by the inductance of the motor windings can destroy the semiconductors in the VFDs power bridge.


#74943 - 02/07/07 12:23 AM Re: Disconnect on the secondary of a VFD  
frenchelectrican  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 939
Wi/ Paris France { France for ...
also i will like to add this to this disscussion that if you use the disconnect switch [ non fused type ] i suggest that you add a "polit" switch or microswitch on the camshaft of the disconnection switch so it will send the signal to the VFD contoller to shut off the power to prevent spikeing voltage and sorta like lock out to prevent the VFD firing up with very high voltage with low HZ it can wreack hovac and also during running if disconnected it will spike as well


Merci , Marc


Pas de problme,il marche n'est-ce pas?"(No problem, it works doesn't it?)


#74944 - 02/08/07 01:55 AM Re: Disconnect on the secondary of a VFD  
Rich Thomas  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 48
Seattle, Washington, USA
A disconnect is required on the line side of the VFD. Quite often, a fused disconnect is furnished as part of the VFD equipment. For small VFD's, the disconnect needs to provide the short circuit and fault current protection. The VFD feeder breaker will provide this over current protection.

A disconnect (safety) switch on the load side, for disconnecting the motor is not required as long as the VFD line side OCP device can be locked in the open position.

It is standard practice to provide a LOCKOUT STOP pushbutton at the motor, whether or not a motor disconnect switch is provided.

I also like to install a JOG or START/STOP control station at the motor in order to locally check rotation, etc.


#74945 - 02/08/07 05:14 PM Re: Disconnect on the secondary of a VFD  
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
Quote
The voltage spikes developed by the inductance of the motor windings can destroy the semiconductors in the VFDs power bridge.


I am having a hard time with that.

How is a spike from the motor that was caused by the switch opening getting back to the motor through an open switch?

I do agree that opening a switch on the load side of a VFD is not a great idea but I do not think that this spike is the reason.

That said it is common to have disconnect switches on the load side of VFDs when the VFDs are located at a central MCC and the motors are not in sight.

As 'Frenchelectrician' mentioned installing an auxiliary contact in the remote disconnect to disable the VFD is common.


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

#74946 - 02/08/07 07:32 PM Re: Disconnect on the secondary of a VFD  
NJwirenut  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 806
Bergen County, NJ
Quote
How is a spike from the motor that was caused by the switch opening getting back to the motor through an open switch?


By arcing back across the contacts as they open? The voltage developed by rapidly dumping current through a motor winding can easily get up into the several kV range.

I've repaired several VFDs that got wiped out by this kind of abuse. In one incident, it was a simple safety disconnect switch at the motor that killed it. In the others (machine tool retrofit applications), it was the installation (by a well-meaning machinist) of the VFD upstream of a reversing contactor or drum switch, to try to keep as much of the original setup in use as possible. Those problems were solved by wiring the VFD right to the motor, and handling the reversing at a low level, with a logic input to the VFD.


#74947 - 02/08/07 07:41 PM Re: Disconnect on the secondary of a VFD  
renosteinke  Offline
Cat Servant
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
Blue Collar Country
Exactly where is it required to have the disconnect on the load side?

Are we saying that we are required to do something that will harm the VFD? Maybe creating a hazard?


#74948 - 02/08/07 08:22 PM Re: Disconnect on the secondary of a VFD  
sandsnow  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 167
Irvine, CA, USA
It sounds as if a disconnecting means on the load side of a VFD could meet the conditions in 430.102(B)exception (a). Since opening it would fry the VFD.

"...introduces additional or increased hazards to persons or property.


Larry LeVoir
Inspector
City of Irvine, CA

#74949 - 02/09/07 06:01 AM Re: Disconnect on the secondary of a VFD  
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
In this area it is common to find disconnects located at the motors with the VFDs in MCCs at some remote location.

These disconnects will have auxiliary contacts to disable the VFD.

IMO these disconnects are not intended to be used to control the motor only provide a way to have a switch for service work at the motor.

If they are used in an emergency situation and it fries the VFD so be it.

Sandsnow, I am not sure the inspectors here would buy into the increased hazard to just the VFD as enough of a problem to warrant less protection of personal at the motor.

JMO, Bob


[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 02-09-2007).]


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Member Spotlight
togol
togol
NW In. USA
Posts: 421
Joined: September 2005
Show All Member Profiles 
Featured:

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

Shout Box
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.015s Queries: 15 (0.003s) Memory: 0.8185 MB (Peak: 0.9941 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-04-25 12:30:27 UTC