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#6682 - 01/09/02 10:12 PM Comments/12 wire ckts/ AFCIs...  
PiecesUv8  Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7
Manorville, NY, USA
First let me say that I have only been here for two days (but have managed to read 90% of the posts) and have to say that I am impressed with this forum.

I disagreed on some minor issues such as the postings on the 12 wire branch ckt minimum, that insisted that a 12 wire minimum was the way to go with residential general lighting circuits, as I am of the opinion that most household plug ins are still wired with 16 gauge stranded, rated at 15 amps. Also, I am of the opinion, that damage caused by arc faults should be kept to a minimum in residential applications. Do a comparison test sometime by simply shorting out a 12 wire/ 20 amp ckt and you will find that not only is it more difficult to get a 20 amp ckt to trip but it also creates a lot more smoke (and sparks) in the process. By comparison a 14 wire/ 15 amp ckt using say a Square D Homeline breaker(quite popular here now) for instance will trip instantly and the spark itself is almost non existent. These are things I believe to have been scientifically engineered by our predecessors and not to be tampered with...

I must say also that I am aware of a "farmers threeway" as it was something my grandfather used in rare cases...

I have a comment on AFCIs... Local inspectors here are insisting they be used in bedrooms only to include overhead lighting and closet lighting on all aplications filed after Jan 1st. As these breakers are priced at $28.50 a piece here, this again would indicate to me a need to continue using a 14 wire/15 amp ckt for general lighting receptacles. This is not a problem for me as I have found lately that houses have gotten larger, bedrooms are considerably bigger now and require more receptacles, and more lighting, and I find myself pulling individual feeds into each individual bedroom, often times into two or three gang switch boxes... This is also a convenience for the homeowner, many of whom have repeatedly asked me, well which breaker do I shut off if I just want to shut off my bedroom? It also makes it easier to label ckts on panelboards... I have spent my share of time working with 12 wire in industrial applications so I have been exposed to this arguement before... and this is just an opinion... I'm going to post this and then I have one question for the knowlegable of which there appears to be many here...


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#6683 - 01/09/02 10:48 PM Re: Comments/12 wire ckts/ AFCIs...  
Chris Rudolph  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 160
Winter Park,Fl USA
You can use a 15 amp breaker on a #12 wire ckt to limit the fault current.
Chris


#6684 - 01/09/02 10:52 PM Re: Comments/12 wire ckts/ AFCIs...  
Chris Rudolph  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 160
Winter Park,Fl USA
Forgot to add where permitted like the bedrooms etc.
Chris


#6685 - 01/10/02 06:03 AM Re: Comments/12 wire ckts/ AFCIs...  
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,308
PiecesUv8;
210.12 requires all outlets in bedroomssmokes too... As to #12 or #14 , box fill becomes tuff @ 3-gang with #12's [Linked Image]


#6686 - 01/10/02 10:32 PM Re: Comments/12 wire ckts/ AFCIs...  
PiecesUv8  Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7
Manorville, NY, USA
Sparky,

I am also very concerned with box fill and have found that a gem or nail on with less than a 7 wire fill is almost useless to me. Which is also one of the reasons I prefer 14. I still use the fiberglass boxes (there was some discusion here on this also), as they are fireproof and stamped in Sq Cu Inches, permitting me to avoid the wire fill table. Although now I'm using a 3" deep or more as opposed to the 2 and 3/4 we used to use. Unfortunately here I am not able to get them in larger than a 4 gang box...

AFCIs on smokes - My opinion on this may sound really, really, crazy. Here on LI local inspectors require them in all bedrooms, in stairways, in hallways, in the garage, in the basement, in fact every room except the kitchen or bathrooms so it's not uncommon for me to have ten or more on a loop... BUT if you stop to consider that some people in this world still smoke (you know as in "Light 'em if ya got 'em")various tobbaco like products, and some of these people actually choose to smoke, yes, in the very same home that you just wired (ie their home)... Can you imagine what 12 smoke detectors going off simultaneously would do to a two pack a day smoker? Or a guy that simply wants to kick back at night smoke a dube and relax? That man would absolutely never ever find any peace in his own home, that he just payed thousands and thousands of dollars for... I am also of the opinion that the requirement for these additional smokes has very simply just added about $500. to my estimate for that one circuit alone... Additionally, I am of the opinion that the average smoke only has a reliable lifespan of about 3 years max, and it'll probably be 50 to 100 years before my wiring degrades to the point of actually causing a fire... There are those that would say that if it saves one life it is worth it... But I have really had to stop and question the sense in all of this... So, and this is the crazy part, what I have begun to do lately is install them all on their very own circuit. I mean a breaker's only 4 bucks ya know? Hey, and look, it's got an OFF position. Meaning that, yes, I intend to install them on their very own AFCI, for the convenience of the homeowner... [Linked Image]That just added another 28.50 to the price of my smoke detector circuit which sorry to say is a local requirement... Let's see - one dozen smokes at ten bucks a piece plus one AFCI, add %15, say 8 hours labor... whoa...


#6687 - 01/11/02 06:36 AM Re: Comments/12 wire ckts/ AFCIs...  
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,308
More dedicated circuits, more diversity, more of a panel. I've had to use 200A MLO's off a 100A meter/main because of this. Within the Demand load..but...

Quote
permitting me to avoid the wire fill table.

PiecesUv8,
huh? you have an angle to share??
[Linked Image]


#6688 - 01/12/02 01:51 AM Re: Comments/12 wire ckts/ AFCIs...  
Jim M  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 457
Chestertown, MD, USA
Putting the smoke detectors on a seperate circuit so they can be turned off? IMO this is STUPID! A smoker turns them off so they can smoke, then they fall asleep and the cigarette drops into the couch and smolders until it causes a fire and possibly a death? Isn't this what they are designed to prevent?

BTW, my wife smokes and no the detector has not gone off from her smoke, now the cooking is another issue. LOL.


#6689 - 01/14/02 12:40 AM Re: Comments/12 wire ckts/ AFCIs...  
PiecesUv8  Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7
Manorville, NY, USA
well don't you think all these smokes is a little overkill?? Not only does the kitchen cooking set them off, so does steam from the showers... and like i said the life of this electronic device is relatively short... in fact I would almost recommend they be replaced once a year...


#6690 - 01/14/02 11:48 AM Re: Comments/12 wire ckts/ AFCIs...  
resqcapt19  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
IL
Where did the life span information for smoke detectors come from? Many smoke detectors over 10 years old are still working and test ok when exposed to testing smoke. False tripping is usually caused by the use of the wrong type of detector or wrong placement.
Don(resqcapt19)


Don(resqcapt19)

#6691 - 01/14/02 05:43 PM Re: Comments/12 wire ckts/ AFCIs...  
WARREN1  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 176
Greenville, SC, USA
Like the man said-Where did this life span for smoke detectors come from? I have them in my house (battery operated) and they have been there for many years. I occasionally have to reach up and pull the battery out so my wife can finish cooking. After that, and the smoke clears, I re-install the battery. So, I don't think one year is a true life span on smoke/ionization detectors.
Just my thoughts.


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