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Fire doors and Smoke detectors #39766
06/30/04 11:55 PM
06/30/04 11:55 PM
E
e57  Offline OP
Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
S.F.,CA USA
Myself, and another Lead are are tackeling a job that has an Automatic Closing Fire/Smoke door. Of the large roll-up gate type. And we cant figure out where we might find some info on this...

Does the door need to be able to close under all of the following conditions?

1. No power.
2. Smoke /fire conditions
3. Unattended

I suspect it does... But unsure of where to find it.

Anyone know of something in a NEC, UBC or other code.

This is the Main Entrance to a show room within a building, with other fire exits guided by signage.

What we DO know, is that it needs to close in Smoke condition. But unsure if required with Power off. (Outage condition) And, unattended.

I'm sure requirements may have changed since the last time I had to deal with one more than three years ago. Things I mentioned, have been issues on other types of fire doors in this building. We have other door like it, but were put in the 50's, before anything like that would have been required.

Figured the guys installing it might have known a bit, seeing that they install them all the time. But, besides being a bit clueless, (didn't have a concept of what I was talking about)they tore apart the cieling on it's first operation. Cause the limits weren't set, it went in to the cieling, they lowered it, and tore the rock off.


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Re: Fire doors and Smoke detectors #39767
07/01/04 08:27 AM
07/01/04 08:27 AM
E
earlydean  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 751
Griswold, CT, USA
Right on all counts:

Don't know about UBC, but IBC says:

909.5.2 Opening protection.
Openings in smoke barriers shall be protected by automatic-closing devices actuated by the required controls for the mechanical smoke control system. Door openings shall be protected by door assemblies complying with Section 714.2.3.

909.11 Power systems.
The smoke control system shall be supplied with two sources of power. Primary power shall be the normal building power systems. Secondary power shall be from an approved standby source complying with the ICC Electrical Code. The standby power source and its transfer switches shall be in a separate room from the normal power transformers and switch gear and shall be enclosed in a room of not less than 1-hour fire-resistance-rated construction ventilated directly to and from the exterior. Power distribution from the two sources shall be by independent routes. Transfer to full standby power shall be automatic and within 60 seconds of failure of the primary power. The systems shall comply with the ICC Electrical Code.

(The ICC Electrical Code consists of an administrative section and then adopts the 2002 NFPA 70 in it's entirety)

I'm sure the UBC has similiar requirements.

Earl


Earl
Re: Fire doors and Smoke detectors #39768
07/01/04 08:00 PM
07/01/04 08:00 PM
E
e57  Offline OP
Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
S.F.,CA USA
Thank you, that did clear up a bit, as to where to find all the requirements.

Dare, I say it, I don't have a current copy of the IBC. But it looks like I'll need to expand the bosses library soon. I'm gonna borrow one tomorrow from our general, I'm sure he's got one.

The building in question, which our company offices our in, has over one hundred fire/smoke doors. Most are magnetic held self closing, all the roll ups went in way back and don't have closing systems for smoke, only fusable links for fire. Allot of these are soon to be replaced, so it looks like I had better get sorted for the rest. I knew there was something, just not where to find it...

Anyway thanks, E57


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
Re: Fire doors and Smoke detectors #39769
07/01/04 08:27 PM
07/01/04 08:27 PM
S
stamcon  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 330
So San Francisco CA
e57, look at Section 713 of the 2001 Calif. Building Code.

steve

[This message has been edited by stamcon (edited 07-01-2004).]


Steve
Re: Fire doors and Smoke detectors #39770
07/02/04 06:05 PM
07/02/04 06:05 PM
E
e57  Offline OP
Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
S.F.,CA USA
This thing got sorted out today... Section 714.2.3 was the ticket, thanks again earlydean! Now it's just an inspection away!

I forget the actual wording, but the smokes need to operate for a certain time after an outage. And that cleared it all up. Unfortunatly, every time the door is tested, or the smokes trip it, the door guys have to come out to reset the chains. A real pain in the &%^!


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
Re: Fire doors and Smoke detectors #39771
07/02/04 07:53 PM
07/02/04 07:53 PM
electure  Offline

Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,264
Fullerton, CA USA
e57
We're the only State, I think, that still has our CA Building Code based on the UBC, and not the IBC.
If you've got a copy of the UBC, you're fine until our dinosaur-era State updates.
What about asking the fire dept what they want?

Re: Fire doors and Smoke detectors #39772
07/03/04 12:42 PM
07/03/04 12:42 PM
E
e57  Offline OP
Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
S.F.,CA USA
Yeah, we cross refferanced both, and both were very simular wording. Then rechecking against the SF ammendments. And, after finding a 12vdc smoke that would work with the door relaese system, a task in itself, we're all good now. Had to call everywhere to find it.

As for the fire dept. they'll come through... "Yep, signage, lighting, door closer, job card, bye."

Our Electrical Inspector though... will put it through the paces. We talked to her, and she set it straight on what she wants.


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
Re: Fire doors and Smoke detectors #39773
07/04/04 06:55 AM
07/04/04 06:55 AM
E
earlydean  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 751
Griswold, CT, USA
Ya gotta love those tests.


Earl

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