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Grounded or ungrounded system? #39353
06/17/04 04:04 PM
06/17/04 04:04 PM
B
Bill39  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 75
Indianapolis, IN, USA
If you get voltage readings from phase to ground does this automatically mean you are working on a grounded system? I’m setting up a VFD drive and one of the parameters is to select if it is connected to a grounded system. So how would you classify the system? Here’s what is present:

30KVA delta-delta transformer (buck-n-boost)
Primary is fed from 3 phase 208/120 system.
Secondary is 440VAC 3 phase, no corner or center tap ground (ohmmeter readings are infinity from each phase to ground).
Actual readings on secondary are:
A-B=444V A-GND=239V
A-C= 442V B-GND=271V
B-C=443V C-GND=250V

Actual readings on primary are:
A-B=210V A-GND=121V
A-C=210V B-GND=122V
B-C-209V C-GND=121V

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Re: Grounded or ungrounded system? #39354
06/17/04 04:36 PM
06/17/04 04:36 PM
Radar  Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 349
Los Angeles, CA
I think if your delta secondary were grounded, you would get predictable readings of 440V, 220V, or 0V phase to ground, depending on the point of ground and point of measurement.

This looks like an ungrounded (floating) system. Your secondary phase to ground readings appear unpredictable and may vary or drift over time.

Radar


There are 10 types of people. Those who know binary, and those who don't.
Re: Grounded or ungrounded system? #39355
06/17/04 08:23 PM
06/17/04 08:23 PM
B
Bjarney  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,527
West-Southern Inner-Northeast ...
The described 440V circuit would be considered ungrounded. [The 30kVA transformer may be a motor-drive isolation transformer intended for somewhat higher-harmonic laods, with labeling to reflect such ratings.] Some ø-g voltage unbalance can be expected as a result of insulation-quality variation in the 440V windings or wiring and loads connected to it.

It would be a misapplication to use slash-rated overcurrent devices such as a 480Y/277V circuit breaker or 300V fuses in the 440V circuit. Also, if surge-protective devices intended for grounded-wye service were applied {or integral to a component like a motor drive} were intended for a grounded-wye application, it could experience failure in an “exothermic” mode.

Re: Grounded or ungrounded system? #39356
06/18/04 05:35 AM
06/18/04 05:35 AM
P
pauluk  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
Norfolk, England
Even with no load on the transformer secondary you could expect to get varying voltage readings to ground due to capacitance.

The measured volotages will also be dependent upon the impedance of the meter you're using to take the readings.

Re: Grounded or ungrounded system? #39357
06/27/04 06:50 PM
06/27/04 06:50 PM
D
dereckbc  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 156
Tulsa, OK
The varible/unpredictable voltage is the result of capacitance coupling to ground. The capacitance is formed between the windings of the transformer and case, and between the ungrounded phase conductors and EGC/raceways. A Wye system shorts out this capacitance and stabilizes system voltages with respect to earth.

Re: Grounded or ungrounded system? #39358
06/27/04 07:05 PM
06/27/04 07:05 PM
I
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
So is there a simple way to test if we have a grounded or ungrounded system?


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
Re: Grounded or ungrounded system? #39359
06/27/04 08:16 PM
06/27/04 08:16 PM
B
Bjarney  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,527
West-Southern Inner-Northeast ...
The right way to determine system grounding is by reading equipment [transformer] labels and doing a visual inspection of associated grounding. If the ‘originating’ transformer is utility-owned, ask them. It’s important to realize that because no neutral or ground conductor is routed with phase conductors in a circuit, that does not automatically mean the source is ungrounded.

On the North American continent, although the more recent tendency is to use 4-wire grounded-wye systems, there may also be ungrounded, resistance grounded, corner grounded or midcoil-grounded systems, which may be applied to 240-600V systems.

Aside from that, assemble {series!} five 100-watt, 120-volt lamps protected by a pair of 3-amp 600-volt fuses. Carefully connect the string phase-to-ground, and by reading the three phase-to-ground voltages, you can get an idea of ground impedance. If you suspect a grounded or ungrounded system, prove it to yourself through visual inspection.

Re: Grounded or ungrounded system? #39360
06/27/04 08:21 PM
06/27/04 08:21 PM
R
Ryan_J  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,374
West Jordan, Utah, USA
It's good to see you here Dereck. Welcome aboard.


Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City
Re: Grounded or ungrounded system? #39361
06/27/04 09:56 PM
06/27/04 09:56 PM
D
dereckbc  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 156
Tulsa, OK
Ryan_J would that be 618?

Re: Grounded or ungrounded system? #39362
06/27/04 09:57 PM
06/27/04 09:57 PM
R
Ryan_J  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,374
West Jordan, Utah, USA
The same. [Linked Image]


For those of you who don't know Dereck Campbell, he will be a great asset here. His knowledge of both code and theory and complete and very impressive.

Plus he's a great guy. [Linked Image]

I'm sure you'll find some familiar faces here Dereck, and if you havfen't already, take a look at this thread to see what some of your freinds look like:

https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002850.html
Then send me or Bill a pic so that you can get added to the list!!!

[This message has been edited by Ryan_J (edited 06-27-2004).]


Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City
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