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two prong vs GFCI outlet #38759
06/01/04 12:18 AM
06/01/04 12:18 AM
E
Edward  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 308
California
Is replacing two prong outlet with a GFCI really a solution to a non grounding outlet or just a bandaide approach?

I would rather rewire with a grounding then install a GFCI.

What do you fellows think?

Thanks
Edward


Thanks
Edward
Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Re: two prong vs GFCI outlet #38760
06/01/04 01:52 AM
06/01/04 01:52 AM
B
Big Jim  Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 394
Denver, CO USA
Hey, sparky, I got a hundret dollars and this busted plug. Can you fix 'er up?
I don't think there is any question that everyone would prefer to rewire with ground included but the real world doesn't work that way. I've still got 2 strings of 2 prong outlets running downstream from ungrounded GFCIs in my own house. Some day, they'll get replaced but I did all I could before we moved in. With the GFCI, they are a lot safer than they used to be.

Re: two prong vs GFCI outlet #38761
06/01/04 07:08 PM
06/01/04 07:08 PM
B
BPHgravity  Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 139
Port Charlotte, Florida
Most of the general-use equipment being plugged into 15- and 20-ampere receptacles only have two prong attachment plugs anyway, and those that do have 3 prongs don't usually have exposed metallic or grounded parts. Everything is plastic. You really only run into issues with refrigerators and washers.


Bryan P. Holland, ECO.
Secretary - IAEI Florida Chapter
Re: two prong vs GFCI outlet #38762
06/01/04 08:07 PM
06/01/04 08:07 PM
R
Ryan_J  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,374
West Jordan, Utah, USA
250.114 says that you can't use the GFCI method for any of these:
--------------------------------
(3) In residential occupancies:
a. Refrigerators, freezers, and air conditioners
b. Clothes-washing, clothes-drying, dish-washing machines; kitchen waste disposers; information technology equipment; sump pumps and electrical aquarium equipment
c. Hand-held motor-operated tools, stationary and fixed motor-operated tools, light industrial motor-operated tools
d. Motor-operated appliances of the following types: hedge clippers, lawn mowers, snow blowers, and wet scrubbers
e. Portable handlamps


Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City
Re: two prong vs GFCI outlet #38763
06/01/04 08:27 PM
06/01/04 08:27 PM
E
Electricmanscott  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,457
Holden, MA USA
Ok Ryan nice point. Now how would you enforce this.

Re: two prong vs GFCI outlet #38764
06/01/04 08:35 PM
06/01/04 08:35 PM
R
Ryan_J  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,374
West Jordan, Utah, USA
How would I enforce it? You act like a permit would be taken out!! [Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Honestly, if I were to run into this in the feild as an inspector I would give the owner the list I provided and say "here you go"! If they violated it and something bad happened it would be assumption of risk on their behalf and not negligence on mine. [Linked Image]


Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City
Re: two prong vs GFCI outlet #38765
06/02/04 01:50 AM
06/02/04 01:50 AM
T
Texas_Ranger  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,407
Vienna, Austria
Hey Ryan, in practice most of the stuff you mentioned is actually double-insulated, so it wouldn't even matter to connect it withouzt a GFI. A ground is definitely _not_ necessary for technical reasons. Where would it go with a 2-prong plug? IT equipment does need a ground, both because it often comes in metal enclosures and for static discharge. For the latter reason an ungrounded GFI is not good for this kind of equipment.

Re: two prong vs GFCI outlet #38766
06/02/04 05:25 AM
06/02/04 05:25 AM
I
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
Actually most of the stuff in that is not double insulated.

Quote
Refrigerators, freezers, and air conditioners Clothes-washing, clothes-drying, dish-washing machines; kitchen waste disposers; information technology equipment; sump pumps


I have never seen double insulated versions of the items on that list.

This is why I do not think replacing a two wire outlet with a 3 wire one is the best move.

My choice would be a GFCI breaker and leave the two wire outlets.

The GFCI breaker would help when they use a 'cheater' adapter. [Linked Image]

Ryan, you do not pull a permit when you plug in your appliances? [Linked Image]

Bob


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
Re: two prong vs GFCI outlet #38767
06/02/04 08:32 AM
06/02/04 08:32 AM
T
Texas_Ranger  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,407
Vienna, Austria
iwire, a and b not, but c to d are IMHO mostly double-isolated (not necessarily all of c, only handheld). At any rate a GFI is good with that stuff.

Re: two prong vs GFCI outlet #38768
06/03/04 07:48 AM
06/03/04 07:48 AM
Attic Rat  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 524
Bergen Co.,N.J. USA
... At this juncture,I have to pose a question.. I'd heard that GFCI's as a rule "don't like" motor loads,ie;...Refrigerator compressors,washing machine
motors,..etc,because they "see" the start up windings as a short,and result in nuisance tripping..is this true..??
Russ


.."if it ain't fixed,don't break it...call a Licensed Electrician"
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