ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Shout Box
Recent Posts
Video: Inventor of the GFCI self-testing shocks
by Bill Addiss. 01/17/18 11:11 PM
FPE in Germany
by HotLine1. 01/17/18 07:07 PM
VDE 0100 to introduce AFCIs
by LongRunner. 01/17/18 10:32 AM
Fujifilm Recalls Power Adapter Wall Plugs
by Admin. 01/16/18 07:04 PM
Air Compressor feeder conductor sizing
by Potseal. 01/15/18 09:08 PM
New in the Gallery:
Housebilding DIY wiring
SE cable question
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (dougwells), 18 guests, and 8 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Ground Rod for hot tub?? #34497
02/13/04 08:16 AM
02/13/04 08:16 AM
R
Rob  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 15
New York
Outdoor hot tub on a deck.
It is a replacement tub, I was
asked to wire it in. The original wiring
has a "bond" wire from the pump frame to a
ground rod under the deck. The panel box is located on other end of house. There is
a continuous ground to the main panel and a
2 pole GFCI breaker. (Is this in the NEC ? )
I am not sure I should rewire the new one to it again. Thanks for any info.

Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Re: Ground Rod for hot tub?? #34498
02/13/04 01:50 PM
02/13/04 01:50 PM
E
earlydean  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 751
Griswold, CT, USA
In the 70s and 80s a lot of folks did not understand grounding. Many inspectors required them to and many electricians would install ground rods at all outdoor thingies (pools, hot tubs, light poles). We know better now, but you will still see it happening. Ignore it. Drive it out of sight. Just make sure you have a low impedance path back to the OC device, and all that should be bonded is.

Earl


Earl
Re: Ground Rod for hot tub?? #34499
02/14/04 12:07 AM
02/14/04 12:07 AM
P
PCBelarge  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 681
Dobbs Ferry, NY, USA
As Earl has mentioned, there is bonding and grounding required for pools and hottubs, and it seems that a lot of people have trouble understanding the difference between bonding the hottub and grounding it.

Pierre


Pierre Belarge
Re: Ground Rod for hot tub?? #34500
02/14/04 08:06 AM
02/14/04 08:06 AM
W
winnie  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 649
boston, ma
I know that you don't need a ground rod in order to properly bond a piece of equipment to the building electrical system, that 'grounding' a piece of equipment without bonding it to the OCPD panel is both wrong and dangerous, and that once you have bonded back to the panel, you will have also 'grounded' the electrical equipment.

However, is there any reason _not_ to use this extra ground rod that happens to already be buried in the ground at the location? If this hot tub were in a separate out-building with a subpanel, I presume that the subpanel would _require_ grounding electrodes, connected to the equipment grounding conductor, but isolated from the neutral.

-Jon

[This message has been edited by winnie (edited 02-14-2004).]

Re: Ground Rod for hot tub?? #34501
02/14/04 08:55 AM
02/14/04 08:55 AM
I
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
250.54 would allow the use of the "extra" ground rod and I can not think of any reason it would do more harm than good.

I also do not see what safety it will add so IMO using it is a waste of stock.

However if this outdoor hot tub has more than one circuit feeding it or is fed by a feeder you may be required by 250.32(A) to install and use a ground rod. [Linked Image]


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
Re: Ground Rod for hot tub?? #34502
02/14/04 10:42 AM
02/14/04 10:42 AM
A
Active 1  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 687
Grayslake IL, USA
To correctly utilize the hot tub ground rod would it not require a larger ground wire? Then to fit the larger wire a bigger pipe.

Example:

A 50 Amp hot tub I would run a # 8 equipment ground to the first (outside) disconect. Then a # 10 from that disconect to the panel.

To use the ground rod by the tub on say a 200 a service it would require a # 4 the entire distance.

I don't know if there is something in the NEC but around here the branch circuits would never be run with the buildings grounding system.

What would happen to the branch circuits or hot tub in the same pipe as the grounding system if it took a surge from lighting? I think it could induce some voltage to the other circuits.

Re: Ground Rod for hot tub?? #34503
02/14/04 10:55 AM
02/14/04 10:55 AM
I
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
Hi Active as this ground rod is considered a supplementary ground rod many of the regular requirements do not apply.

Quote
250.54 Supplementary Grounding Electrodes.
Supplementary grounding electrodes shall be permitted to be connected to the equipment grounding conductors specified in 250.118 and shall not be required to comply with the electrode bonding requirements of 250.50 or 250.53(C) or the resistance requirements of 250.56, but the earth shall not be used as the sole equipment grounding conductor.


In short if you choose to install this supplementary electrode you simply connect it to the EGC wherever you want with whatever size wire you want.

Unless there is local amendment I do not see how your inspectors could fail this.

Bob


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
Re: Ground Rod for hot tub?? #34504
02/14/04 12:46 PM
02/14/04 12:46 PM
electure  Offline

Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,264
Fullerton, CA USA
The use of the words "supplemental" and "supplementary" might throw some off.
A supplemental electrode is one that's required by 250.53(D)(2) to augment an underground metallic water line at a service.
A required supplemental electrode still doesn't have to be connected with a conductor larger than a #6 See250.53(E).

A supplementary electrode is, as iwire says, just that. 250.54, and is permitted

Re: Ground Rod for hot tub?? #34505
02/14/04 09:35 PM
02/14/04 09:35 PM
A
Active 1  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 687
Grayslake IL, USA
Thanks Iwire and electure. I did forget you could use a #6 for the rod. I tend to just use the extra from the water pipe run because the rod is never too far.

Re: Ground Rod for hot tub?? #34506
02/15/04 07:20 AM
02/15/04 07:20 AM
I
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
Quote
The use of the words "supplemental" and "supplementary" might throw some off.


Why would that be confusing. [Linked Image]

Thanks Scott that is a very good point, the "supplemental" rod is subject to the rules of other electrodes. [Linked Image]

Bob


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

Featured:

2017 Master Electrician Exam Preparation Combos
2017 NEC Electrician
Exam Prep Combos:
Master / Journeyman

 

Member Spotlight
HotLine1
HotLine1
Brick, NJ USA
Posts: 6,917
Joined: April 2002
Show All Member Profiles 
Top Posters(30 Days)
sparky 20
Admin 20
Potseal 13
Popular Topics(Views)
243,539 Are you busy
180,341 Re: Forum
170,830 Need opinion
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1
(Release build 20180101)
Page Time: 0.020s Queries: 14 (0.004s) Memory: 1.0108 MB (Peak: 1.1834 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2018-01-18 17:57:46 UTC