ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Top Posters(30 Days)
Potseal 11
Recent Posts
Dimmable LED 2x4 lay in fixtures
by HotLine1. 04/24/17 05:43 PM
Old decora style outlets
by Lostazhell. 04/22/17 07:59 PM
Permit Snafus...AHJs and Contractors Jump in
by gfretwell. 04/22/17 01:11 PM
How do you find a good employee?
by HotLine1. 04/22/17 10:44 AM
Electrode boilers question
by SteveFehr. 04/21/17 08:32 AM
New in the Gallery:
SE cable question
Popular Topics(Views)
234,681 Are you busy
169,402 Re: Forum
162,723 Need opinion
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (Admin), 72 guests, and 11 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
#201854 - 06/28/11 07:16 PM Private RV Park  
Grover  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 109
Sebago, ME, USA
My customer has a private (family and friends - no rentals) RV park - for use by family and friends during the summer - seasonal only. The site has provisions for 3 campers, complete with septic hook-up.

He asked me to upgrade the 3 20A 120v GFCI outlets to 30A. Not having a copy of the 2011 NEC with me, I called the State Inspector to get a reading on the requirements. He referenced me to 551 III - 551.40 (C) and said they must be GFCI protected.

I ordered the GFCI's (special order with my supply house, and Square D doesn't make a single pole Homeline 30A GFCI, so I had to convert the panel to Square D QO). Swap went fine, with 30A 120 "RV" receptacles. Then the campers started arriving, and every one of them tripped the 30 A GFCI breakers! My cost for the QO GFCI's is $68.00 - expect a customer dispute.

I believe my State Inspector was wrong. 551.40 (C) references the requirements for inside the RV; 551 VI 551.71 references RV Parks, and the only mention there is for GFCI protection on 15 and 20 amp circuits; references to 30 A and 50 A do not mention GFCI protection. 551.71 also proscribes that I must have some 50 A receptacles as I have 3 sites....

QO 30A GFCI's trip at 5 ma, and these campers have air conditioners and refrigerators, which have capacitors on the motors, and over time they leak......

Any comments or guidance here?

Thanks guys (and gals).

Grov


Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades

#201856 - 06/28/11 08:20 PM Re: Private RV Park [Re: Grover]  
renosteinke  Offline
Cat Servant
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
Blue Collar Country
I expect you're about to make a major tuition payment in the "University of Life."

Let's start with a few observations that ought to be vommon knowledge by now:
1) These days, GFCI's generally trip because there's a problem;
2) RV parks more than a few seasons old are wildly overloaded and badly degraded; and,
3) The RV's themselves are invariably a vipers' nest of worn, damaged, and improper wiring.

Need I go into detail?

What I suggest you do is that you hook up a nice big electric heater (or, better yet, a 'wall shaker' air conditioner) to each circuit to demonstrate that the problem is NOT with the breaker.

Next explain, using small words and short sentences, that it's likely there is something in each RV that is trying very hard to kill someone.


#201858 - 06/28/11 08:39 PM Re: Private RV Park [Re: Grover]  
HotLine1  Offline


Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,809
Brick, NJ USA
Grover:
This took some reading on my part. I agree with you..551.40 is for receptacles within the RV IMHO.

Again, 30-50 GF is not required. You may want to politely request the inspector to please re-read 551.

As to the 50 amp locations, yes they are required, BUT...your clients site may not comply with the NEC definition. See the wording '...vehicles of the general public'. IF the site is private....then you have no reason to comply with the 50 amp requirements, although you may choose to do so for convenience.



John

#201859 - 06/28/11 08:43 PM Re: Private RV Park [Re: Grover]  
HotLine1  Offline


Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,809
Brick, NJ USA
OK, Reno slipped in above me.

Yes, there may be internal issues in the RVs, no doubt that is what is tripping the GF. As Reno more than likely has seen more RVs than me, I believe him that they can be ratty.

My point being, reading 551 I offered my opinion on the requirements as I read it.



John

#201869 - 06/29/11 12:45 AM Re: Private RV Park [Re: Grover]  
gfretwell  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,069
Estero,Fl,usa
I would not be surprised if RVs regrounded the neutral. A couple of minutes with a meter would confirm that


Greg Fretwell

#201875 - 06/29/11 02:42 AM Re: Private RV Park [Re: gfretwell]  
frenchelectrican  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 939
Wi/ Paris France { France for ...
The other thing I will tell the owner of that place to have some of the RV the inverter or converter connection can screw up the RCD { GFCI } I have see this over in France once a while as well espcally with either inverter or converters they can shunt them up pretty good and pay attetion to the DC side espcally the inverter or comverters they not always float it the negtive cable typically grouned to the frame and some converter or inverter will leak thru the negtive cable and can cause false singal in there.

Merci,
Marc


Pas de problme,il marche n'est-ce pas?"(No problem, it works doesn't it?)



Member Spotlight
TOOL_5150
TOOL_5150
Bay Area
Posts: 61
Joined: August 2007
Show All Member Profiles 
Featured:

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

Shout Box
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.012s Queries: 15 (0.003s) Memory: 0.7798 MB (Peak: 0.9282 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-04-25 14:42:19 UTC