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Direct Bore Conduit Question #195239
07/21/10 09:52 AM
07/21/10 09:52 AM
Y
Yoopersup  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 840
Michigan
I have a Contractor who submitted American Ductile Iron pipe for direct bore under a river. The submittal said Water, Sewage pipe. Is there any other direct bore Conduit allowed besides HDPE ??
Yoopersup

2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
Re: Direct Bore Conduit Question [Re: Yoopersup] #195241
07/21/10 12:48 PM
07/21/10 12:48 PM
G
gfretwell  Offline

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,166
Estero,Fl,usa
I suppose he could use the water pipe as a sleeve and pull HDPE or some other appropriate wiring method through it.
FPL did a directional bore under the river next to me but I didn't get to see what wiring method they used. I think the bore casing itself was that thick wall (1 1/4" or so) PVC pipe because there were pieces of it on the side of the road.


Greg Fretwell
Re: Direct Bore Conduit Question [Re: gfretwell] #195245
07/21/10 04:29 PM
07/21/10 04:29 PM
Y
Yoopersup  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 840
Michigan
I agree Putting Conduit inside of another pipe might be fine. But using water/Sewage pipe for Conduit I;d say thats a No No.This pipe is Iron with concrete lining.
Yoopersup

Re: Direct Bore Conduit Question [Re: Yoopersup] #195247
07/21/10 06:35 PM
07/21/10 06:35 PM
HotLine1  Offline

Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,917
Brick, NJ USA
I've heard of the occasional AHJ insist that any 'sleeves' be UL listed/labeled as 'at least electrical material'. This came up on a resi multi family rental unit developement. The sparkies, and the cable & telco guys used scrap pieces of orange PVC leftovers from the sprinkler installers. The debate raged on for a few weeks & held the job up. Outcome was 'what was installed can remain, but do not use it anymore'.

As to your OP, I do not know of any other listed bore conduit other than HDPE.


John
Re: Direct Bore Conduit Question [Re: HotLine1] #195253
07/22/10 07:29 AM
07/22/10 07:29 AM
G
ghost307  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 926
Chicago Illinois USA
As long as neither the fire ratings nor the structure is compromised, I see no problems with using anything that's handy as the sleeve that the conduits go through.


Ghost307
Re: Direct Bore Conduit Question [Re: ghost307] #195256
07/22/10 08:20 AM
07/22/10 08:20 AM
HotLine1  Offline

Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,917
Brick, NJ USA
Ghost:
I tend to agree with you on that if the rated wall was not compromised, there is no issues.

As I said, the basis of the debate was using non-electrical materials, similar to using plumbing PVC for electrical conduit.



John
Re: Direct Bore Conduit Question [Re: HotLine1] #195258
07/22/10 12:58 PM
07/22/10 12:58 PM
G
gfretwell  Offline

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,166
Estero,Fl,usa
If the installer calls it a "duct" I am not sure which article the AHJ could cite. "Ducts" are talked about in the derating articles but they are never defined.
White PVC driveway sleeves are the norm here in new construction and I have never seen it cited as a violation.


Greg Fretwell
Re: Direct Bore Conduit Question [Re: gfretwell] #195259
07/22/10 02:16 PM
07/22/10 02:16 PM
HotLine1  Offline

Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,917
Brick, NJ USA
Greg:
Finding a citable article was brought up in the debate & that AHJ could not substantaite, other than 90.4, which did not totally stand.

Yes, white pipe in driveways (resi) happens here. Personally, I have no issue with it, as I had no issue with the above mentioned 'orange PVC.



John
Re: Direct Bore Conduit Question [Re: HotLine1] #195263
07/22/10 07:16 PM
07/22/10 07:16 PM
renosteinke  Offline
Cat Servant
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
Blue Collar Country
I think there's some 'legal amnesia' taking place. What did we use before there was HDPE? After all, HDPE is pretty new to the code. Were we not doing direct bores before then?

Just because one product is listed for a specific use, that does not mean that only that product can be used.

As for re-tasking materials from their original use and applying them to electrical uses, that's a call for the AHJ to make. While the code says 'use one of these ...,' the code also recognizes that the AHJ can waive / approve / make exceptions; that's why he's called the "AHJ."

Make your case as to why the substitution is justified, and let him earn his pay.

Re: Direct Bore Conduit Question [Re: renosteinke] #195286
07/23/10 06:40 PM
07/23/10 06:40 PM
Y
Yoopersup  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 840
Michigan
Conduit (HDPE ) VS Pipe
Taken from handbook of Poyethylene pipe.
In general plastic pipes and plastic pipes are very similar in structure &composition , but deployment is where they differ.
#1 Conduits do not have long term interial pressure.
#2 Externial forces are unchecked if ovalized during installtion, may not recover during service.
#3 Long term stress rupture is not a factor ( Hydrostatic
design basis is not required in material selection.
Because we used improper methods before now that we have them is there any reason not to install it correctly now???
#4 Conduit ID is chosen by cable occupancy,where internal clearences are critical.whereas for pipeing applactions ID is based on volumetic flow requirements.
And theres tons more on why Proper Conduit should be installed.


Last edited by Yoopersup; 07/23/10 06:41 PM.
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