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#191987 - 01/22/10 02:53 PM Re Sec 210.12 NEC  
harold endean  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
Boonton, NJ
I have a question under section 210.12 (B)......Family room,dining room,living room, parlors,libraries, dens,bedrooms,sunrooms,recreation room, closets,hallways, or "SIMILAR ROOMS OR AREAS" can someone define "Similar"?

What about lights in the kitchen? Lights in a unfinished basement? Finished basement? Lights in a garage? Attic?


2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides

#191990 - 01/22/10 03:26 PM Re: Re Sec 210.12 NEC [Re: harold endean]  
renosteinke  Offline
Cat Servant
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
Blue Collar Country
Well, thereby hangs the tail ...

Mike Holt was first to realize that this list failed to include stairwells. Others at his site also noted that the non-GFCI protected kitchen circuits were also not required to have AFCI protection.

Now you mention the lighting.

As I see it, the code panel said 'outlets' when they were thinking 'receptacles.'

Another possibility is that they wanted to say 'all' without actually saying 'all.' This might explain the earlier limiting of AFCI requirements to bedrooms; at that time, it was rare for a bedroom to have a dedicated circuit.

Who knows? I've said all along that the AFCI requirements, whatever the motive, were 'bad law,' It's no surprise that these issues keep popping up.


#191993 - 01/22/10 04:07 PM Re: Re Sec 210.12 NEC [Re: renosteinke]  
ghost307  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 900
Chicago Illinois USA
When the AFCI requirement first reared its head they were needed for "receptacle outlets". In fact, that's where the Chicago Code still is.

The next NEC Code cycle that was revised to specifically remove the word "receptacle" so that it would apply to all outlets; be they lights, receptacles, hard-wired, or whatever.

I was told that the bedroom receptacle outlets was indeed intended as a starting point. The eventual plan was to included everything in the entire house, but they wanted to start small to see if there were any major issues before they expanded the requirements.


Ghost307

#191997 - 01/22/10 07:21 PM Re: Re Sec 210.12 NEC [Re: ghost307]  
HotLine1  Offline


Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,809
Brick, NJ USA
Harold:

I guess a 'prayer room', media room, excersize room, 'office', or basically whatever you want to call the rooms. basically, if it isn't GFI, it's AFCI?

I'm really starting to think that the powers that be in Trenton used their heads when they waited till now to adopt AFCI here.

Let the debate continue....



John

#192004 - 01/22/10 09:25 PM Re: Re Sec 210.12 NEC [Re: HotLine1]  
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,306
Quote
Let the debate continue....


sure, if you can stomach cyclical mobius strip logic.....~S~


#192014 - 01/23/10 12:56 PM Re: Re Sec 210.12 NEC [Re: sparky]  
harold endean  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
Boonton, NJ
John,

My friend Tony wrote to Suzanne and asked her about the Rehab code and she e-mail him and I back. I sent you a copy of his letter and her reply. I am not sure if I sent it to your home or work e-mail.


#192015 - 01/23/10 01:05 PM Re: Re Sec 210.12 NEC [Re: harold endean]  
harold endean  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
Boonton, NJ
Reno/ghost,


I wrote to my state and complained about the new '08 NEC. I have been in this business for 30 years or more. This has to be the worst code change that I have ever seen. There are too many manufactures who sit on the code making panel. They all keep pushing for their products to become law. This way it sells more products. How much more will AFCI add to the price of a new house?

I am also getting questions from EC's about AFCI protection for pool wiring and HVAC wiring. I ask why pool wiring. They say it is because it goes through a bedroom. So since it goes through a bedroom, it must be AFCI protected.


#192017 - 01/23/10 01:49 PM Re: Re Sec 210.12 NEC [Re: harold endean]  
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,306
maybe the Q to ask is if there's any rop's in the works asking for a clarification.....?

~S~


#192029 - 01/23/10 05:54 PM Re: Re Sec 210.12 NEC [Re: harold endean]  
frenchelectrican  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 939
Wi/ Paris France { France for ...
Originally Posted by harold endean
Reno/ghost,


I wrote to my state and complained about the new '08 NEC. I have been in this business for 30 years or more. This has to be the worst code change that I have ever seen. There are too many manufactures who sit on the code making panel. They all keep pushing for their products to become law. This way it sells more products. How much more will AFCI add to the price of a new house?

I am also getting questions from EC's about AFCI protection for pool wiring and HVAC wiring. I ask why pool wiring. They say it is because it goes through a bedroom. So since it goes through a bedroom, it must be AFCI protected.


Harold.,
You did bring up good question related to the pool circuit that have to run thur the bedroom.
But if not useation { have a switch or outlet } in bedroom IMO it do not have to be AFCI at all.

That question will be open answer format due there are few ways to address this situation.

Speaking in my state { Wisconsin } they just start enforeing AFCI not too long ago so it will be instering how it come out. In France we don't have any AFCI devices yet but heard talking about it but nothing in written yet.

Merci,Marc


Pas de problme,il marche n'est-ce pas?"(No problem, it works doesn't it?)


#192117 - 01/27/10 09:58 PM Re: Re Sec 210.12 NEC [Re: frenchelectrican]  
Jim M  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 457
Chestertown, MD, USA
As far as the wiring for a pool or something else going thru a bedroom I really don't see the need for the AFCI. It is not serving any of the area requiring AFCI protection. What is the kitchen or bathroom circuits went thru the bedroom? Could the AHJ reasonably expect to now require AFCI protection?

This reminds me of the closet lighting that was exempt during one of the early requirements for AFCIs in the bedrooms. I also remember that switches in bedrooms for floodlights outside did not require AFCI protection.


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