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#188822 - 09/05/09 01:06 AM Receptacles under a counter at a pizzera  
Stu T  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 27
Stamford, CT
Based the NFPA 70 2008, Would receptacles located under a free standing counter, with warmers on top be required to have GFCI protection ? There is a hand sink behind this counter and like most pizza places the pies are made on a table adjacent to the counter. My local inspector is applying the same rules as a commercial kitchen to the counter area. I don,t believe that it was the intent of the coding making panel to treat this area like a true commercial kitchen.
What do you think? Comments welcomed
Thanks


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#188824 - 09/05/09 01:42 PM Re: Receptacles under a counter at a pizzera [Re: Stu T]  
gfretwell  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,069
Estero,Fl,usa
I would lean toward safety and say it should be GFCI.
If this is in the same space as the actual preparation and cooking area I would say it was still the kitchen.


Greg Fretwell

#188847 - 09/06/09 10:49 PM Re: Receptacles under a counter at a pizzera [Re: gfretwell]  
HotLine1  Offline


Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,809
Brick, NJ USA
I agree with Greg.


John

#188856 - 09/07/09 01:16 PM Re: Receptacles under a counter at a pizzera [Re: HotLine1]  
leland  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 853
Lowell area, Ma. USA
Kitchen.

Most pizza places I see,Are kitchens from behind the counter to the back door.
Additionally. How far away is the sink under that counter?

Either way: GFCI is cheap insurance.


#188868 - 09/08/09 02:13 AM Re: Receptacles under a counter at a pizzera [Re: leland]  
Stu T  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 27
Stamford, CT
Hey guys I certainly agree that installing GFCI's is a good idea, but in the interest of interpreting NFPA 70, article 210.8 (B) (2) I would like to pick it apart and see if the intent is what I'm seeing. The counter does have a sink but NO Food preparation and/or Cooking takes place there. Food preparation and cooking takes place at another counter not connected or attached to the 1st counter.
I think you have to also look at the definition of the word Area.

Comments welcomed




#188869 - 09/08/09 03:09 AM Re: Receptacles under a counter at a pizzera [Re: Stu T]  
Trumpy  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,211
SI,New Zealand
Hi there Stu,
I could be way off base here, but are these bench-tops sheet (formed into a benchtop) Stainless Steel by any chance?

Having a large conductive surface can make all the difference where things like appliances and cords are being used and where water can be splashed about.

Like I said above, I could be way off, I live on the other side of the world. crazy


Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

#188872 - 09/08/09 03:48 AM Re: Receptacles under a counter at a pizzera [Re: Trumpy]  
gfretwell  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,069
Estero,Fl,usa
I would call everything behind the customer counter "the kitchen" in any fast food or pizza joint I have ever been in.
The only exception would be a clearly delineated break room or office.


Greg Fretwell

#188874 - 09/08/09 04:09 AM Re: Receptacles under a counter at a pizzera [Re: gfretwell]  
Trumpy  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,211
SI,New Zealand
Originally Posted by gfretwell
I would call everything behind the customer counter "the kitchen" in any fast food or pizza joint I have ever been in.
The only exception would be a clearly delineated break room or office.

Exactly Greg,
The kitchen in my opinion is a "room" all to itself.

Over here with respect to other "places" within that space would require at least a wall and a door.


Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

#188877 - 09/08/09 11:23 AM Re: Receptacles under a counter at a pizzera [Re: Trumpy]  
renosteinke  Offline
Cat Servant
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
Blue Collar Country
I think we are limited here by both our limited knowledge of the site, and the limitations of the language!

Let me describe a pizzaria that I was recently at; that might help put things into perspective.

This pizzaria had a kitchen and customer-service counter in what you would say was the same 'room,' but clearly different areas. That is, the food work was performed a significant distance away from the cash register. In a sense, you could say that the 'counter' was where one wall would have been.

Branching off of this counter - where the counter ran into a wall - was another counter where they had the various condiments and soda fountain. There was also a salad bar at the extreme end.

The 'customer service' counter only saw food after it was placed in a box, or on a plate. It was the place where customers placed their orders and were separated from their money. Cash register, card reader, menus, and elbow room. Even though the other side of this counter was directly accessible to the kitchen, from a code perspective I don't see a requirement for GFCI protection of the receptacles.

As for the other counter - the one with the salad bar and soda fountain - I'd that was a food preparation area, and GFCI's were required. Had there only been a soda fountain ... maybe not a requirement, but certainly no problem. I have set up several soda fountains and ice machines on GFCI's, without problems.

The condiments? Again, look at the use. If it's just a rack of envelopes, no. If there's space for the customer to assemble their masterpiece, yes.


#188886 - 09/08/09 09:56 PM Re: Receptacles under a counter at a pizzera [Re: renosteinke]  
HotLine1  Offline


Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,809
Brick, NJ USA
Lets take a look at the '08 NEC Handbook commentary:

"Section 210.8(B)(2) requires all 15- and 20-ampere, 125-volt receptacles in nondwelling-type kitchens to be GFCI protected. This requirement applies to all 15- and 20-ampere, 125-volt kitchen receptacles, whether or not the receptacle serves countertop areas.
Accident data related to electrical incidents in nondwelling kitchens reveal the presence of many hazards, including poorly maintained electrical apparatus, damaged electrical cords, wet floors, and employees without proper electrical safety training. Mandating some limited form of GFCI protection for high-hazard areas such as nondwelling kitchens should help prevent electrical accidents. This requirement provides specific information on what is considered to be a commercial or institutional kitchen. A location with a sink and a portable cooking appliance (e.g., cord-and-plug-connected microwave oven) is not considered a commercial or institutional kitchen for the purposes of applying this requirement. Kitchens in restaurants, hotels, schools, churches, dining halls, and similar facilities are examples of the types of kitchens covered by this requirement."

Not that that really clears up the term 'area'; and if a Pizza shop is in fact a 'restaurant'. Another 'gray area' to perhaps address for 2014?

That said...I have to go with Reno again...knowledge of the site may help. IMHO, GFI protection required.

And...Stu....did you get an opinion from the local AHJ??


John

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