ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Top Posters(30 Days)
dsk 13
Admin 8
doc 3
Recent Posts
Bathroom electrical
by doc. 08/19/17 06:53 AM
electircal ageing test on IPC
by SIAME. 08/15/17 02:43 AM
electrical aging test on IPC
by gfretwell. 08/15/17 12:27 AM
"Line level" audio on Cat 5?
by gfretwell. 08/08/17 10:39 PM
Fire alarm phone lines and color coding
by gfretwell. 08/08/17 10:26 PM
New in the Gallery:
Gallery Test
Popular Topics(Views)
239,989 Are you busy
175,584 Re: Forum
167,836 Need opinion
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 61 guests, and 7 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
#187672 - 07/07/09 12:37 AM 2 wire outlets to 3 wire  
rj  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21
Skidmore, Missouri, USA
I know that you can't change a two prong outlet to a three prong outlet with out adding a ground or by using a gfi outlet. I was wondering and have been looking at the codes can you use a GFI breaker and still use the 3 prong outlet without using a gfi outlet? I am getting ready to work in a very old two wire house. Any help or ideas would be great. Thanks


Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades

#187673 - 07/07/09 02:25 AM Re: 2 wire outlets to 3 wire [Re: rj]  
gfretwell  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,103
Estero,Fl,usa
Yes that meets the definition of the GFCI referenced below.

Quote
406.3(D)(3)(c) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be marked “GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding-type receptacles.


Greg Fretwell

#187678 - 07/07/09 07:11 AM Re: 2 wire outlets to 3 wire [Re: rj]  
Trumpy  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,217
SI,New Zealand
Guys,
Im not looking to start a flame war here or to dis-repect the OP(rj), but at times, things like this really get up my nose.

Simple electrical theory these days dictates that for a circuit to work correctly and safely it needs 3 wires, a Hot, a Neutral and a Ground wire (from a panel).

Now as an Electrician, I also realise that there are jobs where things are so bloody difficult (without committing a heap of violations) the job would never get done (or it would and it would be unsafe).

Wether by building construction or by other such things, it isn't possible to pull in new wires (believe me I've seen this a LOT of times).

I think it really comes down to how "in-accessible" wiring actually is and wether the electrician on the job just took the softer option.
We have the RCD over here and it is pretty much the same as a GFCI, but it trips at 30mA.
I've lost count of the times I've heard guys say "Let's just throw an RCD on it!" and to a degree it really annoys the hell out of me.

Having GFCI/RCD protection is one thing, but once it is installed, you are also asking the Home-owner to make sure these devices are tested every month.

Umm, yeah OK "where did they install that?"

If it is needed, the last thing you need is a non-trip due to a frozen mechanism, this has happened before and will again, it has killed people.


Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

#187680 - 07/07/09 09:17 AM Re: 2 wire outlets to 3 wire [Re: Trumpy]  
HotLine1  Offline


Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,858
Brick, NJ USA
Mike:
I agree with you, that sometimes 'shortcuts' are taken by some people, be they 'hacks', or pro's that may look for an 'easy way out'.

Renovation work is tough, no doubt about it, and rewire without damage to finish is an art. There are sparkies that specialize in renov work, and they do remarkable things. There are new construction sparkies that are 'lost' once the 'rock goes on.

As Greg posted, yes, the GF breaker will satisfy code, and provide a measure of safety.....it's up to the end user to perform the mfg required (suggested) testing in a timely fashion.



John

#187681 - 07/07/09 02:05 PM Re: 2 wire outlets to 3 wire [Re: HotLine1]  
gfretwell  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,103
Estero,Fl,usa
I think the main reason people install grounded outlets is money (they don't make a cheap 2 prong receptacle)and the illusion that it is modern wiring, since about 95% of the things we plug in have 2 prong plugs. With the rise in popularity of double insulated power tools that is only increasing.
If the appliance is not grounded, all we are protecting is the wiring method. The GFCI does an excellent job of that. I still believe most of the protection (and nuisance tripping) of an AFCI circuit comes from the ground fault protection.


Greg Fretwell

#187691 - 07/07/09 04:06 PM Re: 2 wire outlets to 3 wire [Re: gfretwell]  
KJay  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 763
MA, USA
This thread got wondering... do the currently available GFCI circuit breakers also have the fail-safe circuitry required in GFCI receptacles. Meaning if there is an internal malfunction, will the breaker cease to allow output. Seems logical that they would, but I have never really looked into this.


#187719 - 07/08/09 01:18 AM Re: 2 wire outlets to 3 wire [Re: KJay]  
frenchelectrican  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 939
Wi/ Paris France { France for ...
Originally Posted by KJay
This thread got wondering... do the currently available GFCI circuit breakers also have the fail-safe circuitry required in GFCI receptacles. Meaning if there is an internal malfunction, will the breaker cease to allow output. Seems logical that they would, but I have never really looked into this.


KJay.,

If my memory serve me right yes that is correct the most modern breaker will have that feature if malfuction it will lock out however I can not garnatee the answer due there are few diffrent manufacter have diffrent default or lockout mode for the breaker GFCI { RCD } devices

I think if my mind is working right the SqD and CH and Seamans are start useing current design simauir to the GFCI { RCD } receptale device but no comment with aftermarket items.

Merci,Marc


Pas de problme,il marche n'est-ce pas?"(No problem, it works doesn't it?)


#187724 - 07/08/09 01:53 AM Re: 2 wire outlets to 3 wire [Re: frenchelectrican]  
gfretwell  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,103
Estero,Fl,usa
ANSI/UL 943 applies to all type A GFCIs as far as I can tell. I am not willing to actually buy the standard to see for sure.

This is another case of people making copyrighted material laws but not publishing the text. Maybe another law suit is in order.


Greg Fretwell


Member Spotlight
akmaster
akmaster
alaska
Posts: 70
Joined: June 2012
Show All Member Profiles 
Featured:

2017 Master Electrician Exam Preparation Combos
2017 NEC Electrician
Exam Prep Combos:
Master / Journeyman

 

Shout Box
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.016s Queries: 15 (0.003s) Memory: 0.7974 MB (Peak: 0.9610 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-08-20 17:20:23 UTC