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#176658 - 04/08/08 09:07 PM More snake oil?  
Redsy  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,056
Bucks County PA
Didn't we look at this before?

http://www.power-save1200.com/1200?gclid=CMKs8NvjzJICFQGCxwod33IFbg

A local resident had on installed and said his monthly electric bill is about $10.00 lower.

I am trying to convince him that it can't be true.

Thanks for the input.

John


Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades

#176661 - 04/08/08 09:17 PM Re: More snake oil? [Re: Redsy]  
BryanInBalt  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 47
Baltimore
IF it is actually lower (and thst is a ginormous IF) it is likely to be because he is conscious of his usage and is being more conservative.

Have him dig out his bills for several years and compare the KWH of comparable periods.


Design-Build isn't supposed to mean design *as* you build.

#176662 - 04/08/08 09:25 PM Re: More snake oil? [Re: Redsy]  
Redsy  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,056
Bucks County PA
Thanks Bryan.

That is exactly what I told him. 3 months of data at this time of year is useless. A comparison to last year at the same time of year is an absolute minimum.


#176666 - 04/08/08 09:53 PM Re: More snake oil? [Re: Redsy]  
gfretwell  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,069
Estero,Fl,usa
It is power factor correction and it might save a little money if you have the right kind of loads but 10% is a lot.


Greg Fretwell

#176668 - 04/08/08 11:08 PM Re: More snake oil? [Re: gfretwell]  
twh  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 905
Regina, Sask.
I have a wattmeter on my house. My understanding is that I wouldn't save anything with power factor correction.


#176669 - 04/08/08 11:08 PM Re: More snake oil? [Re: gfretwell]  
sparkyinak  Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,317
Alaska
My guess is power correction too possiblty caps. Residences are "poor" when it comes to power factor. Friges, freezers, air conditioners, any motor loads like hand held appliances have "poor" PF. I would imagine that is one of the reasons why residential kW rates are higher. Large commercial users pay for the PF issues.


"Live Awesome!" - Kevin Carosa

#176674 - 04/09/08 01:48 AM Re: More snake oil? [Re: sparkyinak]  
Albert  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 76
Falls Church, VA
Back in the 1950s there seemed to be a lot of interest in secondary capacitors for residential services. For example, Sangamo offered the "Secovar" line of 240V 2KVAR caps for installation at the meter location. They came in three versions: a separate box which connected to the meter box by a nipple, a box with male and female meter jaws on opposite sides which was inserted between the meter and the meter box, and a meter box with the caps inside.

Several companies also produced pole-mounted secondary caps.


#176676 - 04/09/08 02:08 AM Re: More snake oil? [Re: Albert]  
gfretwell  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,069
Estero,Fl,usa
The way I understood the article when the "green plug" was being tested is a lightly loaded motor is very inefficient but a properly sized motor in something like a fridge or HVAC runs at very close to unity and these things are a waste of money for that. You notice when they do demonstrate these things they like to use a fractional HP motor with no load at all.


Greg Fretwell

#176677 - 04/09/08 06:39 AM Re: More snake oil? [Re: sparkyinak]  
SteveFehr  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,205
Chesapeake, VA
Originally Posted by sparkyinak
My guess is power correction too possiblty caps. Residences are "poor" when it comes to power factor. Friges, freezers, air conditioners, any motor loads like hand held appliances have "poor" PF. I would imagine that is one of the reasons why residential kW rates are higher. Large commercial users pay for the PF issues.
Except that these are only a very small %, and mostly intermittant- you're not going to save any money pf correcting a garbage disposal or garage door opener for the few seconds a day they're running. The vast majority is simply resistive or of a nonlinear sort that wouldn't be helped by a pf cap- lighting, water heater, stove, clothes dryer, electronics, etc. The only load that would really be helped by this is the AC compressor. And with natural seasonal variations, you're never going to be able to prove anything without a GIANT study.

Residential pf is typically .92-.96. Here's a small poco study actually looking at the effectiveness of residential power factor correction caps:
http://www.kvarhydrosave.com/sites/kvar/gfx/Residential_Power_Factor_Porrection_Project_2005.pdf

Redsy: did you point out to your friend that electic bills are all an estimate based on past useage, and that his "$10 savings" is actually reflecting the month's usage BEFORE he got the pf correction, and more likely just because the weather is more temperate right now than any of the snake oil he wasted his money on?


#176678 - 04/09/08 07:10 AM Re: More snake oil? [Re: SteveFehr]  
SteveFehr  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,205
Chesapeake, VA
ARGH, bitten by the short edit window again! I wanted to point out that residential meters are measuring kW not kVA. If the pf was .2 and 5kVAh/kWh or 1.0 with 1kVAh/kWh, it wouldn't matter, you'd pay the same per kWh regardless.
Originally Posted by SteveFehr
Residential pf is typically .92-.96. Here's a small poco study actually looking at the effectiveness of residential power factor correction caps:
http://www.kvarhydrosave.com/sites/kvar/gfx/Residential_Power_Factor_Porrection_Project_2005.pdf
Looking more closely, this was a very poor study. They only ran it for 2 months, and didn't have a control. Ironically, it looks like the pf correction caps actually made the pf worse, because while it would correct a poor pf while the motors were running, it would overcorrect and increase current while the motors were not.

Their conclusion was that the poco may recoup savings on the pf cap due to reduced overall transformer, generator and line current loading, but an individual HO would not see any cost savings.


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