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#176165 - 03/23/08 11:22 AM Fire Alarm adding equipment  
BobV3CORP  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 22
Watertown, Ma USA
FireLite Miniscan 112 panel located in a common stairway at front entrance first floor. Panel is a sub panel to another panel in a common stairway in another front entrance first floor of the building. Fire Department says can keep existing panel because we are complete remodel of existing pizza shop, one tenant in a multi tennant (comm.residential) building with 4 comm. and 8 residential units. Gut to studs of this tennant only.

System sensor says can use one of their 4wire smokes with a module to connect to the panel. Modules is a 2w-MOD2 Loop Test/Maintenance Module smoke is a 4WT-B

Will I be able to replace the horn units with Horn/Strobes?

Would anyone be able to give me some Technical answers or
contact numbers?

Thanks in advance.


BobV

Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades

#176166 - 03/23/08 11:46 AM Re: Fire Alarm adding equipment [Re: BobV3CORP]  
WireNuts29  Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 85
Mass, U.S.A.
BOB,
You should be able to put horn strobes in, however they will probably not sync. Depending upon the number of horn/strobes your adding you may want to add a firelite power supply. From ADI the 6 amp 4 ckt one in this area is about $450. In most cases if more than one signal device is within sight of another they will need to be synced, however if its only one strobe per bathroom, and One horn/strobe in the main area, you could fly with not having them synced. Another option is a sync module I'm not 100% sure on this but the wheelock one is very straight forward.If you run a 2 wire class A loop for your devices start @ the sync,and return to the sync. You can tap out of the Nac ckt. at the panel, assuming you're not adding too many devices. The only catch is the wheelock sync will only sync wheelock devices. But most brands have they're own sync mods available. Some are just more complex than others.


#176169 - 03/23/08 02:16 PM Re: Fire Alarm adding equipment [Re: WireNuts29]  
LK  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,429
New Jersey
Fire Alarm work is risky business, we have been working with fire systems for many years, and we usually have a fire engineer design our new installations, keeping up with fire codes and standards, is a full time job, take overs, and remod work, is difficult because you need to folllow manufactures specs. and many times these remod jobs have mixed equipment , that does not meet manufacture specs, or code standards, will existing power supply supply new horns without going over the current limits, and above all make sure you have alarm insurance, not just ellectrical contractor coverages, or you may find yourself in a messy situation should anything happen. Take care, and seek good advice. I would not add one wire or any devices, without a fire engineers seal. Alarm work you marry, nothing like electrical work, and just think of the liability with a false fire signal, and the dispatched truck is in an accident, (happens every day) where is your liability, not too many think about the high risk in the fire business.
If any of the buildings have water flow devices, then your liabilaty goes way up, you think a fire is bad, just have some water damage, and your cost just wet thru thre roof.

Last edited by LK; 03/23/08 02:25 PM.

#176173 - 03/23/08 04:52 PM Re: Fire Alarm adding equipment [Re: LK]  
luckyshadow  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 305
Maryland USA
I will agree with LK on this one. You may be taking on liabilities that you are unaware of.
We buy our Fire Alarm equipment from a certified F/A company.
They provide all tech support, the devices and review the existing systems, create the plans for the new work, and certify the system when completed.Not too mention we must have the plans signed off on by the local Fire Marshal.


#176176 - 03/23/08 08:22 PM Re: Fire Alarm adding equipment [Re: luckyshadow]  
LK  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,429
New Jersey
Originally Posted by luckyshadow
I will agree with LK on this one. You may be taking on liabilities that you are unaware of.
We buy our Fire Alarm equipment from a certified F/A company.
They provide all tech support, the devices and review the existing systems, create the plans for the new work, and certify the system when completed.Not too mention we must have the plans signed off on by the local Fire Marshal.


If he gets a good mentor to work with, he should be ok, but the remod's are the problem jobs, yes the city inspector will want the signed plans, for any additions or changes, the horns can be a problem, in old work.


#176179 - 03/23/08 10:07 PM Re: Fire Alarm adding equipment [Re: LK]  
BobV3CORP  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 22
Watertown, Ma USA
Is a fire engineer seperate from an installation contractor in NJ? Are they found in the yellow pages under that title in NJ? I appreciate the words of caution and intend to follow all UL labeling by verifying compatibility with each manufacturer as I have done for the above equipement to this point. As with any task it takes a few under ones belt to become more proficient and I am finding that there is a big need for these smaller fire alarm jobs without the interest of the larger FA Co's. Since we are on the job anyway it seems an easy solution for the customer and good customer service. I am licensed but am just starting to use it on top of our elec. lic.
If anyone is familiar with how to get/give Tech help on my specific problem I would greatly appreciate a response.

Thanks again to all who have responded to this point.


BobV

#176192 - 03/24/08 07:32 PM Re: Fire Alarm adding equipment [Re: BobV3CORP]  
leland  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 853
Lowell area, Ma. USA
Originally Posted by BobV3CORP
FireLite Miniscan 112 panel located in a common stairway at front entrance first floor. Panel is a sub panel to another panel in a common stairway in another front entrance first floor of the building. Fire Department says can keep existing panel because we are complete remodel of existing pizza shop, one tenant in a multi tennant (comm.residential) building with 4 comm. and 8 residential units. Gut to studs of this tennant only.

System sensor says can use one of their 4wire smokes with a module to connect to the panel. Modules is a 2w-MOD2 Loop Test/Maintenance Module smoke is a 4WT-B

Will I be able to replace the horn units with Horn/Strobes?

Would anyone be able to give me some Technical answers or
contact numbers?

Thanks in advance.


Hi Bob, Welcome to the forums.

Right off the bat your question is confusing.
We need particulars. Main panel-sub panel- etc. your talking life safety here, not power.
I assume. the Mini-Scan 112 is covering the commercial spaces.
Reasoning being it is only a 4 zone panel.4 Tennants.
Is this correct?
The "main" panel is covering the apartment units.
Is this correct?

Your doing this job in Watertown Ma. Correct?

Many, many things to consider. I'll go on, but only if your there.

The other system is covering the residencses.
Is this correct?


#176195 - 03/24/08 10:04 PM Re: Fire Alarm adding equipment [Re: leland]  
BobV3CORP  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 22
Watertown, Ma USA
Thanks for your replies everyone.

The job is complete and just awaiting inspection.

The miniscan 112 is a sub panel or slave to the panel in the other area of the business. No it wasn't in Watertown but the AHJ did a walk through and was familiar with the building. The installation is about 25 years old I am guessing that is why they are allowing it to remain.

I didn't need the maintenance module...the first Tech from System Sensor was mistaken.

After speaking longer with FireLite, reviewing the panel manual they sent and following up with System Sensor they helped me determine that all I needed were the smokes I mentioned as well as the horn/strobe and strobe that System Sensor, Fire Lite and my supplier ADI suggested.

System checks good and is awaiting Inspection.

If anyone can clarify the Fire Engineer Source Iwould appreciate it for a resource on any future design and upgrade resource.

Thanks again.


BobV

#176199 - 03/24/08 11:56 PM Re: Fire Alarm adding equipment [Re: BobV3CORP]  
leland  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 853
Lowell area, Ma. USA
NOTIFIER
17 Lincoln St
Malden,MA 02148
(781) 321-7777

Ask for Jim. Sr. Let em' Know I sent you. These guys are GREAT!!!
For suppression and special Hazards. (kitchens,Gas stations data centers (little or huge) etc.) Let me know.

Glad it worked out.


#176204 - 03/25/08 11:10 AM Re: Fire Alarm adding equipment [Re: leland]  
LK  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,429
New Jersey
On the jobs where you need system design, a PE that had experience, in fire system design, is fine.

We just had to fire a customer, they decided to hire handymen to do building upgrades, these guys had no idea what they were doing but they had a tool box and a truck with a sign, we started to receive trouble signels and flase alarm signals, we called the building, and they said the alarms were just going off, what it turned out to be was this bozo they had doing the work was related to one of the people working there, so they were protecting his distruction of the fire system, after a few calls someone said oh we are having work done here, but would not allow us in to check, so we called the AHJ and fired the customer, we were not about to take on the liability for some bozo handyman, that was taking apart smokes, and moving them.

When AHJ finally inspected the site he found other fire violations, boxo was replacing fire rated doors with non fire rated doors.

So be carefull when chosing your accounts, and with fire your job does not end when the install is complete, it continues, you are married to fire jobs.



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