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#143457 - 07/26/05 11:55 AM Company refused to connect cooker (range)  
pauluk  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
Norfolk, England
This came as a call from a nearby house earlier today: Could I take a look urgently please?

The new cooker had come from a well-known electrical chain store which offered delivery, installation, and removal/disposal of the old unit as part of the deal.

It seems that the crew turned up with the new unit and then refused to install it. The message I got at first was a little garbled, something about "C earthing" and a change to the regulations. [Linked Image]

Anyway, when I got there the handwritten message on the delivery note said that they would not install it as there was no RCCD (sic) on the cooker circuit. It then went on to say that they were unable to remove the old cooker as there was no "spur unit" on the wall.

The plate on the wall just took the cable into the box and out through a plate, so it's fair enough that they wouldn't disconnect and leave a bare-ended cable. Why the refusal to connect though?

The main service gear looks to be the original 1960s equipment from when the house was built: MEM 4-way box with rewireable fuses plus a Crabtree E50 voltage-operated ELCB with TT earthing.
The ELCB is obsolete, of course, but there are still hundreds in use around here. Everything checked out fine, breaker working perfectly, 30A circuit to cooker point all O.K., etc., so in went the new cooker.

During the ensuing chat, it emerged that head of the crew had said that they couldn't install because of "new regulations which came into force in January."

So is this a complete misinterpretation of Part P, or is somebody trying to use it as an excuse?

(For those outside the U.K., let me point out that the current version of BS7671/IEE Regs. doesn't actually require an RCD on cookers anyway!)


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#143458 - 07/26/05 12:47 PM Re: Company refused to connect cooker (range)  
Bill Addiss  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,878
NY, USA
Paul,

Not sure if this is a parallel or not, but the local chain stores here have been refusing to disconnect and reconnect hardwired appliances for some years now.

This is probably a liability issue, as the delivery personnel are not licensed (and may not be knowledgable enough) to do this work. This is also an excuse not to take the old appliance away with them which has been the usual custom.

They now request a Receptacle be there and they will have a Cord & Plug on the appliance when delivered.

Bill


#143459 - 07/26/05 02:27 PM Re: Company refused to connect cooker (range)  
chipmunk  Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 144
Southampton, UK
Paul, I had something similar from the Gas company regarding a new boiler in a friend's house, the guy refused to connect it because "the main earthing isn't adequate and it's not RCD protected".

It was RCD protected, by the RCD controlling that section of the consumer unit, and 10mm sq earthing was fine for the 60amp service. I think they have just been told 'don't make us liable, make excuses' [Linked Image]


#143460 - 07/26/05 10:27 PM Re: Company refused to connect cooker (range)  
Trumpy  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,211
SI,New Zealand
Paul,
I'm with Bill on this one.
Stores here that "install" new appliances either have an Electrician on thier staff, or they stipulate that a pre-existing socket be installed.
Quote
This is also an excuse not to take the old appliance away with them which has been the usual custom.

It's come to that over here too, with disposal fees getting higher all the time, most "installers" would just plug the new appliance in, hand you the invoice for it and RUN!!. [Linked Image]
However, the use of an RCD on a cooker is exempted over here, because of the leakage currents caused by dampness in the appliance upsetting the RCD.
Fridges and freezers are the same.


Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

#143461 - 07/27/05 04:32 AM Re: Company refused to connect cooker (range)  
pauluk  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
Norfolk, England
I suspected the liability issue. Maybe the company's legal department has said that to play it safe they shouldn't connect unless there's an RCD (GFI) present, although as this exceeds even the current requirements of BS7671, it seem over-protective. Maybe if it wasn't that, they'd have come up with some other excuse.

Anyway, by the time I left the lady was already on the phone to the company demanding that they now come back and take away the old cooker as agreed (and from the language being used, I use the term "lady" in a very broad sense!).

Bill,

Quote
They now request a Receptacle be there and they will have a Cord & Plug on the appliance when delivered


Do they ask whether it needs to be delivered with a 3- or a 4-wire cord?


#143462 - 07/27/05 05:56 AM Re: Company refused to connect cooker (range)  
kiwi  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 354
christchurch new zealand
Paul, in NZ, the days of the Tradesman taking his rubbish away with him and the Customer providing tea & scones at morning tea, are over.

I'm surprised that Appliance Stores in the UK still deliver & connect appliances for free.

Do range circuits in the UK have to be protected by RCCB ?

As Trumpy mentioned, here in NZ, ranges don't have to be protected by an RCCB. Same for water heaters and fridges. I think this is wrong as these appliances pose significant risk of electric shock. And if they are functioning properly, they shouldn't trip an RCCB.

" In an ideal world " : Electrical appliances would be delivered and installed by a licensed electrician.


#143463 - 07/27/05 06:18 AM Re: Company refused to connect cooker (range)  
Belgian  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 177
antwerp
Here all circuits are on a 300mA RCD but here we all have a TT system.


[This message has been edited by Belgian (edited 07-28-2005).]


#143464 - 07/27/05 07:22 AM Re: Company refused to connect cooker (range)  
Alan Belson  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,803
Mayenne N. France
Took delivery just yesterday of a new refrigerator, which we bought at a little electrical store in the next village. His price matched the superstore 20 miles away. Delivered by the owner, free, within one hour of buying it. He carried it in, with a bit of help from be, unpacked it, put all the shelves in, set up the egg box, plugged it in, explained the control, temp indicator and defrost functions, & took all the packaging away. He offered to take the old fridge away too, (for free), but I already collared it for the shop as a 2-pot glue store, (it still works). 4 years ago, the same guy delivered a new washing machine, and plumbed it in for free too!
To get rid of an old fridge here, you take it to the decheterie where it's segregated for dismantling by specialists, to extract any CF refrigerant (greenhouse gas). Other RWs are stuff like metals, oils, paint, car batteries, hard building rubble, card and paper, wood, and organic garden wastes. There's no dust cart, (towns do have them but it costs more). We pay about $70 a year for the decheterie service, and can take literally anything recycleable there, putting the non-recyclables in our village bin for collection and disposal. It's amazing how little goes in that bin- we recycle practically everything except meat products, contaminated packaging and Bounty wipes, houshold crud from the vacuum cleaner etc. Oh, and our guys make compost from any vegetative waste and when it's ready, it's free, on a help yourself basis.

Alan


Wood work but can't!

#143465 - 07/27/05 03:39 PM Re: Company refused to connect cooker (range)  
Trumpy  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,211
SI,New Zealand
Paul,
Quote
Maybe if it wasn't that, they'd have come up with some other excuse.

Like "We're not installing that stove, it's colour clashes with everything in here". [Linked Image]
kiwi,
Quote
ranges don't have to be protected by an RCCB. Same for water heaters and fridges. I think this is wrong as these appliances pose significant risk of electric shock.

How do you get a shock from a fridge?.
{Apart from when you open it and it's empty.}
The handles and inside of most of the fridges I've worked on are plastic.
I agree about water heaters though, it seems strange however, that you are required to install an RCD protected circuit for the ignitor circuit of a Gas Water heater.


{Just a little Off-Topic comment about moving fridges and freezers.
It doesn't pay to plug a fridge straight in after it has been moved any appreciable distance or has been laid down.
It's best to leave the appliance in it's usual operating position for about 5 minutes before powering it up.
This will ensure that the oil in the compressor has sunk back down into the sump.
Getting large amounts of oil mixed in with the Refrigerant will seriously shorten the life of the appliance.}


Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

#143466 - 07/27/05 03:48 PM Re: Company refused to connect cooker (range)  
Hutch  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 381
South Oxfordshire, UK
Been doing quite a bit of fridge/freezer installs here and the instructions stated 12 hours if the larder fridge had been laid on its back for transport or 4 hours if it had been just shook around. Probably overkill but that's whats in the manual.

I'm never going to move again - ever!!!! [Linked Image]


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