ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Top Posters(30 Days)
Recent Posts
Generator Cable Sizing
by brsele. 10/18/17 07:39 PM
VFD MotorFeeders
by ghost307. 10/18/17 02:39 PM
What do you do?
by gfretwell. 10/17/17 01:08 AM
Good ol' copper pipe in the fuse holder trick
by HotLine1. 10/16/17 07:16 PM
Another generator question
by HotLine1. 10/16/17 07:02 PM
New in the Gallery:
Gallery Test
Popular Topics(Views)
241,380 Are you busy
177,337 Re: Forum
168,952 Need opinion
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 54 guests, and 10 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
#11059 - 06/26/02 04:32 PM Article 525-Carnivals, Circuses, Fairs etc  
Frank Cinker  Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 311
Pennsylvania
Would a 240 volt, 50 amp receptacle require GFCI protection according to NEC Article 525. I'm aware all 15 and 20 amp, 125 volt receptacles do. I'm having difficulty understanding 525.23(C).

Frank


Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades

#11060 - 06/26/02 10:45 PM Re: Article 525-Carnivals, Circuses, Fairs etc  
HotLine1  Offline


Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,872
Brick, NJ USA
Frank:
I just read 525.23 (c) and it refers to 525.18 (A) or (B). Well, I can't find 525.18 (A) (B) in my 2002 NEC...
If the 50 amp is for a appliance see 525.23 (B). DEpending on the conditions, and the possible risks involved I probably would install a GFI device for "peace of mind".
Remember, the Code is "minimum requirements", no one can fail for exceeding the Code requirements.

John (HotLine1)


John

#11061 - 06/26/02 11:12 PM Re: Article 525-Carnivals, Circuses, Fairs etc  
The Watt Doctor  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 435
Mont Belvieu, TX
Hotline,
I have a feeling that the reference of 525.18(A) or (B), should be 525.23(A) or (B). I would guess that the intent is to refer back to "itself", and then (C) covers any receptacle not covered by (A) and (B).
Frank,
It says that outlets..."shall be permitted...". So, the code allows us to put in a GFI if we are so inclined.
I would also consider the type of equipment. Notice (B) speaks specifically about cooking and refrigeration which doesn't lend itself to GFI.

G Feel I terrific,
Doc


The Watt Doctor
Altura Cogen
Channelview, TX

#11062 - 06/27/02 06:32 AM Re: Article 525-Carnivals, Circuses, Fairs etc  
Frank Cinker  Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 311
Pennsylvania
Watt Doctor-

The "shall be permitted" kind of threw me off. Does that mean it is a requirement or simply permitted if you so desire???

Frank


#11063 - 06/27/02 09:53 AM Re: Article 525-Carnivals, Circuses, Fairs etc  
The Watt Doctor  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 435
Mont Belvieu, TX
Mr. Cinker,

You hit the nail on the head. Go to Article 90.5(B)Permissive Rules. It will tell you that they are "....allowed but not required....options or alternative methods...."
Notice 220.17 Appliance Load-Dwelling Unit(s) "It shall be permissible to apply a demand factor of 75%....."

Notice 220.18 Electric Clothes Dryers-Dwelling Unit(s) ".....demand factors in Table 220.18 shall be permitted."

The code is saying, "Hey, you don't have to apply these demand factors, but you are allowed to if 'you so desire'."

There are other places in the code that use the permissible rule. So keep your eye out for it. That one rule can change your entire outlook on the code. It gives us freedom within the rules.

For the application that you are involved in, I would consider 525.23(C). What are the conditions surrounding this equipment? Can it be guarded? Can a "written procedure be continually enforced....to ensure safety..."? If the equipment trips out on GFI, will it endanger persons?

Frank, how about some tickets to the carnival? There's nothing like trying to make a rubber frog "jump" on a lilly pad, or throwing a 3" ring onto a 2 7/8" Coke bottle, or paying $5 for a 2 oz Coke.

I can feel my wallet getting lighter, and I'm not even there,
Doc


The Watt Doctor
Altura Cogen
Channelview, TX

#11064 - 06/27/02 10:39 AM Re: Article 525-Carnivals, Circuses, Fairs etc  
Frank Cinker  Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 311
Pennsylvania
Watt Doctor-

To be more specific we must provide two 240 volt, 50 amp "pigtails" for sound system Technicians to plug their equipment in. One will be placed at each end of a very large State Park. We simply connect the 50 amp cable to the 50 breaker in the panelboard. We leave approx. 10 feet of cable coiled up with a female cord end on it for the sound Technicians to plug into the day of the event. We have been doing this for years without GFCI protection.
Frank


#11065 - 06/27/02 11:21 AM Re: Article 525-Carnivals, Circuses, Fairs etc  
resqcapt19  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
IL
Frank,
I believe that your installation is an Article 520 application, and not 525. Look at the scope of 520 and the defintiton of "preformance area" in the 2002 code. As I recall, the scope of Article 520 was changed and the defintion added to make it clear that "road shows" are coverd by 520 and not 525.
Don


Don(resqcapt19)

#11066 - 06/27/02 11:41 AM Re: Article 525-Carnivals, Circuses, Fairs etc  
mountainman  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 54
Richmond Va. U.S.A.
If you go to the IAEI.org site they have the errata for the 2002 code. Under art. 525.23(C) the code referance should read 525.23(A) or (B).


#11067 - 06/27/02 02:10 PM Re: Article 525-Carnivals, Circuses, Fairs etc  
Bjarney  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,527
West-Southern Inner-Northeast ...
This may have something to do with the 50A GFCI use. When GFCIs were first called for on jobsites, 50-amp, 125/250V-fed "spider boxes" came with a single 5mA-trip protecting assorted 15-, 20- and 30-amp, 120- and 240-volt receptacles on the box.

It was a madhouse because any leaky 115- or 230-volt tool could dump the entire box; usually with a couple of strings of temporary lights included. There had to have been some bloody fistfights directed at those stupid electricians.


 

[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 06-27-2002).]


#11068 - 06/27/02 04:23 PM Re: Article 525-Carnivals, Circuses, Fairs etc  
The Watt Doctor  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 435
Mont Belvieu, TX
Capt19,
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one.
Quote
I believe that your installation is an Article 520 application

According to the 2002 NEC Handbook, notice the following:
"Article 525 addresses the installation of portable wiring an equipment for temporary attractions, such as carnivales, circuses, and fairs. Article 525 is intended to apply to all wiring in or on portable structures, whereas Articles 518 and 520 apply to permanent structures.....Article 527 applies more to construction sites...."

Frank,
Is this installation going to be for the 4th of July? Sounds like a big holiday event.
The more I look at this installation, the more I feel that you don't need GFI protection. 525.23(A) is intended for 15 & 20 amp General Use Receptacles rated at 125 volts. 525.23(B) says you don't have to put it on cooking, etc. equipment. Last but not least, 23(C) says, "You can if you want to, or....ensure the safety of the equipment grounging conductors for all cord sets and receptacles, as described in 527.6(B)(2)." My next question would be, does your company have a "written assured equipment grounding conductor program"? Then the next question would be, will someone from your company be on "standby" for the duration of the event? So that they can be the "designated person to ensure that receptacles, etc.....are maintained in accordance with the applicable requirements of 250.114, 250.138, 406.3(C), and 527.4(D)."
Frank,
You have some room to work within this article. Heck, you might be able to go to the customer, and get an "extra" because you need a man on standby for the duration of the event. Ching! Ching! See, I'm making money for you right now, and I'm not even on the payroll. [Linked Image]

Trying to get on Frank's payroll,
Doc

P.S.
Capt, I submit this, not at your expence, but to our expance, of knowledge, that is. Respectfully...........Doc


The Watt Doctor
Altura Cogen
Channelview, TX

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Member Spotlight
mxslick
mxslick
Atomic City, ID USA
Posts: 803
Joined: October 2004
Show All Member Profiles 
Featured:

2017 Master Electrician Exam Preparation Combos
2017 NEC Electrician
Exam Prep Combos:
Master / Journeyman

 

Shout Box
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.016s Queries: 15 (0.003s) Memory: 0.8222 MB (Peak: 0.9979 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-10-19 03:44:38 UTC