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#10588 - 06/15/02 10:16 AM One For The Law Dept  
HIGHVOLTAGE  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 38
" Liable to ANY degree or NOT"
An Electrician is handed a set of plans from his boss ( the EC ) for a job , they are a stamped set from the Elec Eng ,
During the installation he comes to a part that violates code , and says " well thats how they want it done " and does it ,
knowing it's a violation .
Now someone get's hurt due to this .
and the Electrician says' " well thats what was on the plans and they said Do IT"
Now we know "THEY" ( GC,EC, Elec Eng) all will have some degree of liability , the big question is Does the Journeyman doing the job, have any at all , knowing what he was doing was in violation and wrong ????

HV


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#10589 - 06/15/02 10:30 AM Re: One For The Law Dept  
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,311
A Nuremburg scenario HV
[Linked Image]

was there no AHJ?? [Linked Image]


#10590 - 06/15/02 11:22 AM Re: One For The Law Dept  
George Corron  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 717
Lorton, Va USA
HV,
Different states vary a bit, but I'm willing to bet it's not much.

A journeyman gives direction to an apprentice, but a journeyman, by state law (at least in VA) cannot pull permits, an must take direction from a master. If it is a master licensed electrician involved in your scenario, they are quite culpable for the work they directed.

I always tell my students that getting your masters license is not necessarily a good thing [Linked Image]

FYI, I've been asked to testify as an expert witness probably about a dozen time (once to save my own Butt) and will tell you this: If you are a master, and get into a squabble with an engineer (PE or not makes no diff) the court will throw out the testimony of the PE in favor of your practical experience, given that you have credible argument. It's worth considering carefully. Remember the guy in Conn. that was convicted of manslaughter for improperly installing a bad heater.
I look forward to hearing from our barrister on this one though.


#10591 - 06/15/02 05:03 PM Re: One For The Law Dept  
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,311
gee thanks George now i feel better....... [Linked Image]


#10592 - 06/15/02 06:13 PM Re: One For The Law Dept  
motor-T  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 280
Girard, Ohio, USA
High Voltage, Sparky:
Just remember the phrase, " Nicht Schuldigt ", that should help,,, If not try ,
Vee all had to answer to higher ausority.. [Linked Image]
What the hay worth a shot, right.

-Mark-


#10593 - 06/15/02 06:20 PM Re: One For The Law Dept  
pauluk  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
Norfolk, England
Even here with our no licenses/no inspections system, I have seen an odd case reported where someone was taken to court after his faulty wiring had caused an accident.

The law basically said: If you didn't know enough to do the job safely, you shouldn't have done it at all. You're responsible.


#10594 - 06/15/02 07:30 PM Re: One For The Law Dept  
motor-T  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 280
Girard, Ohio, USA
Paul of the UK:

The law basically said: If you didn't know enough to do the job safely, you shouldn't have done it at all. You're responsible.

What a novel idea, that a court actually said that someone is responsible for their actions, thats a difficult thread to find these days,
Hark, maybe there is still hope.

-Mark-


#10595 - 06/15/02 08:39 PM Re: One For The Law Dept  
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,311
Paul,
LOL!
such simplicity would put many lawyers out on the streets here........
[Linked Image]


#10596 - 06/15/02 09:09 PM Re: One For The Law Dept  
frank  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 376
windsor ontario canada
I've send back prints to our in house PE he will usually fix it and has backed me up when the fur starts to fly.Also I've been told by others to "just do it or go home".In this case will give them the defects in writting,stating that the machine will be tagged and locked off until inspection sees it.If they think they can get SPECIAL PERMISSION fine i say for it.If they cut my lock off it it gets personal.Around here if you refuse a job get you repremanded.If you do the job and follow this route you get respect.Of course they want to kill you until they come to the revelation that YOU ONLY DO THINGS THE RIGHT WAY.I did not bust my a** and eat sh*t as an apprentice to have my ticket pulled for somone who does not care.One engineer cut one of my lock outs in front of other employees when i was not on site. They handed him a Ministry of Health and Safety Booklet(CANADA) and kicked him off the floor.


#10597 - 06/15/02 10:20 PM Re: One For The Law Dept  
George Corron  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 717
Lorton, Va USA
Guys,
Frank does have a valid point. If you have done your homework, sent the EE, or whoever may have authority over you, IN WRITING, OR noted in your field notes that you told them, then your responsibility is significantly reduced or eliminated all together.

To that end, I have notebooks and field notebooks going back to the first job I ever ran. It takes 10 minutes a day, I started it because danged if I could remember every little thing I did 2 weeks after I did it, such as a customer asking me to wait 30 minutes to turn off power to something. I did not realize it was a legal document until much later.

Handy though [Linked Image]


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