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Re: Permit Snafus...AHJs and Contractors Jump in [Re: HotLine1] #220442 01/06/20 07:17 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,209
HotLine1 Offline OP
First, Welcome to ECN!!

Now, the 'rant' you reference is from a member here who was/is known to rant, stir the pot, flame, etc., and has not posted here in some time.

I have a very high tolerance for all of that, and as a moderator on this site, I decided to 'let it roll', and see if it expanded into anything that deserves deletion or ??

To address your content, up here in NJ, our Building Inspectors are responsible for the inspection of the rebar/ufer ground terminations when they perform the footing inspection(s). It is not the responsibility of the Electrical Inspector; this is defined within the NJ Uniform Construction Code, statewide, not local.

Common practice here is NOT to stub up rebar, but to connect a #4 Cu with a listed clamp, and leave the #4 tail above grade on the interior area of the structure. IF the location is not by the service, it is extended with irreversible means as necessary. It works.

Partial releases are mainly for large comm jobs, and rarely for rest SFD.

BTW, if you surf thru the threads, and come upon comments from the ranter, don't let it get to you. The other Mods, and myself run thru the posts and delete what does not meet the forum rules.

Take care, and stay d=safe.

Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Re: Permit Snafus...AHJs and Contractors Jump in [Re: renosteinke] #220443 01/06/20 07:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 4
Tom_Horne Offline
New Member
Originally Posted by renosteinke
Amazing the hatred Ms. Rand inspires in some, and the desire to attack the messenger, rather than the message. I'm a bit thrown off by the fancy words in a couple posts; "Atlas Shrugged" is reserved for those of us limited to plain, literate English.

Another irony- one that has to be experienced to be appreciated- is the contrast between Reno, and my current area, near the Missouri bootheel.

At first the two cannot be more different: an involved permit process with multiple fees, vs. a near absence of permitting and inspections.

This may be heresy, but I fail to find any substantial difference in the quality or safety of the work I've seen, comparing the two areas.

Of course, the current situation -where the Reno area has essentially closed down their building departments, and filled the functions with park department personnel- helps to confirm that the REAL reasons for codes lie in control and revenue, rather than a concern for safety.

Contrast the assumptions of many in the inspection trade to the attitude voiced here by many, both within government and without: it's absolutely improper for government to think it has any right to tell a man what he can do with HIS property.

Now, Sparky, if I understand your post, that makes Arkansas something of a utopia. I'm pretty sure you're the first to say that! laugh


We are right back to the fire attack example that I have used before. What gives me and the firefighters I work with the right to break down your door, cut a sheet of plywood sized hole in your roof, break every window in your house, and pour hundreds of gallons per minute of water from each of several hose lines all over everything you own in the world? Surely everyone can see that is not done for the occupants nor the owners benefit.

Firefighters do internal attacks because it is the most effective way to keep the fire from growing beyond the capability of the available suppression resources to control. If we happen to make a "Good Stop" and save some of your home and possessions that is just a happy side effect of what the law obliges us to put first in every suppression effort we make. If we hold it to a "Room and Contents" we are justly proud of ourselves and you just received one hell of a gift from the government entity that operates that fire service.

We exist to prevent your misfortune or failure of responsibility from harming; what we call side A1, B1, & C1; all of your neighbors homes and their other property. Our right to operate in the way we do is an exercise of the Police Power of the State. The State, and it's local governments have no obligation to protect you from Your own misfortune or failure of due diligence. If the State and it's officers tried to do that they would lay themselves open to the possibility of successful legal attack because they would no longer be carrying out the common law purposes of a government. Some local governments become mutual benefit corporations under law by taking on providing benefits to individual members of the community. Until the community voluntarily takes on such burdens they have no obligation under law to provide them and can cease doing so at any time. Undertaking such services makes the local government take on a corporate roll that has nothing to do with the powers of a local government or even a State government. In carrying out the exercise of the Police Powers of the State; Local Government enjoys a very high level of immunity from any civil or tort legal action against them. That is based on 2 principals. The first is that it is a legal absurdity to sue your State Government because they stand in place of the sovereign. Their actions are cloaked with the immunity of the sovereign, which is generally spoken of as Sovereign Immunity. The exercise of Police Power is to carry out a duty that a government has to all of it's citizens. That general duty does not translate into a duty to any individual. The legal axiom by which that is expressed is that "A duty to all is a duty to none."

These principals are also what gives the local government the power to carry out zoning and building code enforcement... Sooner or later each of us is going to die because life is a terminal condition. Someone other than yourself will then come to own your house and the property it stands on. The State does have a general duty to protect that as yet unknown person from whatever actions you may have taken that was not wise or even prudent. It is also a State duty to protect the population of a community from the inevitable results of having too much unshaded heat storing surfaces in the form of parking lots. The zoning requirement for storm water storage and slow release at no greater rate than natural ground cover would have released it into the drainage; In this use the drainage refers to all of the ground that collects water and eventually releases that water into a waterway of some kind; is to prevent the otherwise inevitable flash flooding which is inevitably fatal to some citizen or several citizens. [Those of us who have worked in Fire and Rescue Services have a saying that when we are bored the public is having a good day.]

So yes, the body politic has a right and indeed a duty to protect your fellow citizens from the harmful effects of your actions.

Tom Horne

Re: Permit Snafus...AHJs and Contractors Jump in [Re: HotLine1] #220444 01/07/20 12:59 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,526
gfretwell Offline
The Ufer is also part of our footer inspections. They do allow the turned up rebar inside a CMU core and it is marked so it won't get poured solid like the other doweled cells. The AHJs do prefer the #4 copper but it was turning up missing when they set the service so often that they hold their nose and allow the rebar. I have heard some do want that cell packed solid with concrete after the #4 is attached to meet the "concrete encased" requirement. Others go the other way and want the acorn to remain accessible. (Blank cover over the whole)
The stucco guy will usually be the one who packs the hole when he is doing the outside finish, generally after the panel is set for temporary service.

Greg Fretwell
Re: Permit Snafus...AHJs and Contractors Jump in [Re: HotLine1] #220445 01/08/20 05:22 AM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,389
sparky Offline
I complained to my AHJ that all the 'crete guys think i'm some wingnut, his reply was that they had all decided to make contact with said trade . I'd say that was the 'extra mile'.....~S~

Last edited by sparky; 01/08/20 05:23 AM.
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