ECN Forum
Posted By: djk Irish Electricity Meter - Electronic - 08/31/09 06:02 PM
Here are a few shots of a modern dual-tariff meter from ESB Networks in Ireland.

Close up of meter:
[Linked Image from electrical-photos.com]

Warning label and seal:
[Linked Image from electrical-photos.com]
Service fuse :
[Linked Image from electrical-photos.com]

Meter Cabinet:
[Linked Image from electrical-photos.com]
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Irish Electricity Meter - Electronic - 09/01/09 06:21 AM
Hehe,
I note in the first pic, it states on the front of the meter:
"Solid state Electronic"
As if they still use valves in electronics these days. grin
Posted By: djk Re: Irish Electricity Meter - Electronic - 09/01/09 03:58 PM
LOL - yeah those early valve and pneumatic logic meters were a bit tricky smile
Posted By: adamh Re: Irish Electricity Meter - Electronic - 09/01/09 11:58 PM
That's a fairly typical arrangement for Ireland / UK. The old style meters seem to be being phased out and replaced by electronic ones. The style varies in different areas, some have LCD display like the one shown, some have mechanical digits which are operated by a solenoid.
Posted By: noderaser Re: Irish Electricity Meter - Electronic - 09/02/09 06:23 AM
Solid State/Electronic vs. Electromechanical?

Still extremely common in the US; my parents' house built & connected to the grid in 2003 has an electromechanical meter. It seems that three-phase services were the earliest/first to use electronic meters.
Posted By: djk Re: Irish Electricity Meter - Electronic - 09/02/09 10:59 AM
The majority of meters in use in domestic premises here are still electromechanical. ESB has only started to go digital in recent years. Dual tariff meters (day and night rate) seemed to be the first to switch over.

Larger commercial 3-phase supplies have much more complicated metering and tariff arrangements, so there has been digital metering, sometimes with automatic reporting, for quite some time now.

The models and makes of digital meters being used in residential seems to vary, but they have a standard reading port which a meter reader can access via a hand-held device.

The other major manufacturer seems to be Siemens.

The service fuses in Ireland vary depending on the age of the installation too. Some installations have a diazed (bottle-shape) fuse in a clear plastic enclosure which is sealed with the usual warning labels and seals.

The most modern installations have a rotary switch directly after the meter, this allows the electrical contractor to self-certify and energise. They then apply coded seal to the isolator switch.

In all installations here, the customer's panel must also contain a 'main switch' to isolate the entire system and a 'main fuse', (usually a neozed switch-fuse thesedays, which looks rather like an MCB module.). Certain approved MCBs are now allowed for this purpose too.

The idea is that if the panel is overloaded, the customer's main fuse will blow faster than the service fuse, thus avoiding the need for service calls to the power company.

The service fuse would only blow in very unusual circumstances i.e. where someone has tampered with the customer's main fuse.

Smart Metering's being rolled out to a selection of homes here at the moment using meters made by Sagem (France).

[Linked Image from garyfitzgerald.com]

They either backhaul the data over the powerlines, or in some areas where this isn't possible they have a GSM data module and SIM card inside and send / receive data through the mobile phone system.

Customers are receiving their normal power bills, with their usual tariffs and a 'Shadow Bill' which is based on their smart-meter readings.
In Austria I have seen one(!) electronic meter so far, all others are the good old Ferraris meters. I think anything above 63A three phase is CT metering around here.

Which reminds me of how different service sizes in different countries are. The upper end in Europe seems to be Germany with 3x63A even in apartments in some areas (and certainly no less than 3x35A anywhere), followed by Austria with usually 3x35A for single family homes and 3x25A for apartments (all new construction, old work is usually 3x25 for single family and 1x25 or even 1x20 for apartments). The UK and Ireland are the countries witht he largest single phase services. At the bottom end of the scale you have France (up to 30 amps single phase and even down to 15A 3 phase) and Italy (1x12 or 1x15A for a big single family house!).
Posted By: djk Re: Irish Electricity Meter - Electronic - 09/03/09 11:38 AM
In Ireland you'd typically have :

Small houses (older) / Apartments - 63A Single Phase
Most houses / Some apartments - 80A Single Phase
Some houses / Apartments with unusually high loads e.g. heating / multiple electric instantaneous showers - 100A.

3 phase is used, but it's exceptionally unusual in a residential scenario - although you may find in homes with workshops etc. You won't find any 3-phase circuits used for residential/domestic appliances though. Where as 3-phase seems common enough for cooking appliances in France etc.
Posted By: noderaser Re: Irish Electricity Meter - Electronic - 09/04/09 08:48 AM
Most US residential installations are 200A :P
Posted By: djk Re: Irish Electricity Meter - Electronic - 09/05/09 02:40 AM
Originally Posted by noderaser
Most US residential installations are 200A :P


is that @120V though?

Also, in the US most of that load is taken up by air conditioning in most homes that I've seen. In Ireland air conditioning's just totally unnecessary because of the climate.

Also, electric heating is pretty rare. It's just far more cost effective to use other fuels.

Most homes are heated with hydronic systems (water-filled radiators) usually heated by a furnace burning gas (natural or LPG), pressure-jet oil systems, or increasingly automatic wood-pellet furnaces, in many homes you'd also have options like solid-fuel 'back boilers in fireplaces.

So, many homes would actually have a combination of heat sources for the radiators.
Posted By: noderaser Re: Irish Electricity Meter - Electronic - 09/05/09 06:50 AM
200 A 120/240 V, 60 Hz split-phase is the residential standard.

Where I am, whole-house AC isn't that common, although some people have heat pumps. I have a window unit that I use maybe 20 days out of the year, which is happy on a standard 120 V outlet. Forced-air is definitely the primary heating method, though it could be electric or gas. The only place you see LPG is out in the rural areas that are not served by CNG. Pellet stoves are gaining in popularity, and there are still a lot of people with old-fashioned wood stoves in the city and country. Oil has fallen out of popularity, although it's trying to make a comeback with "Clean" oil technology.

My duplex/apartment has a gas furnace, but an electric water heater and clothes dryer. During the winter, my gas bill has never been above USD $25, and the electric bill is usually around $50 (although that's included with my rent). The heat is used maybe 5 months out of the year, and even then not a lot. I have an old-fashioned on/off thermostat (non-programmable) so I only turn on the furnace when I am home and turn it off when I go to bed. It has a 100 A 120/240 service, which I assume was the original service to the house before it was split into two units. Original construction late 1940's or early 1950's, by my estimation.
Posted By: WESTUPLACE Re: Irish Electricity Meter - Electronic - 09/06/09 01:58 AM
Here in Houston TX 200a 120/240 is the norm, although 400a service is not uncommon. AC is the main load. We use it almost year around. We only have 30-45 heating days a year, some years more some less. Natural gas is the most common with electric a common second. Most homes with gas use it for water heating. As new technology comes to play, more homes have instant water heaters, ether gas or electric. Heat pumps are also more common with ether gas or electric as a backup. Robert
Posted By: NORCAL Re: Irish Electricity Meter - Electronic - 09/06/09 03:12 AM
Originally Posted by djk
Originally Posted by noderaser
Most US residential installations are 200A :P


is that @120V though?



No way, the largest 120 volt service you will see is a 30A & those are ancient artifacts, homes like that would have gas heating,cooking,& water heaters.

On a cheap tract home here a 100 or 125A service is still commonly installed.
Posted By: djk Re: Irish Electricity Meter - Electronic - 09/07/09 02:51 PM
I know of a couple of people who installed heat-pumps here in Ireland and they've found them absolutely uneconomic to run. They were sold as 'energy saving' and 'environmentally friendly' as opposed to burning gas, oil, solid fuels etc but, they're just insanely expensive to operate on our power pricing and also I don't think the temperatures here really lend themselves to heat-pump technologies.

One of my friends installed a system and their heating bill went from about €90 euro a month with natural gas, to over €500 per month with a heat pump. So, naturally enough they are having a massive dispute with the guy who sold it to them.

Also, from an environmental point of view, certainly in this country anyway, it really doesn't make much sense right now as the vast majority of power is still fossil fuel generated. We have no nuclear, hydro's quite limited and large scale wind is only just coming on-stream in a big way.

Pricewise, it simply makes no sense here to heat with electricity.

Natural gas here works out at 5.46 cent (7.82 US Cents) per kWh (it's charged in kWh using a conversion factor nowadays rather than in cubic meters)

My electricity provider, Airtricity (wind power company) is charging :

Day rate: 15.53 cent (22.25 US Cents)
Night rate: 7.68 cent (11.00 US Cents)

So, as you can see there's a very significant financial reason to stay very far away from electric heating here.

(The majority of homes do use electric cooking though)

Also the hydronic systems seem to be vastly more energy-efficient compared to the heatpumps I've seen. The amount of power that goes in to produce that heat seems ridiculous given how little heat they actually produce.

The main fuels used :

Natural gas (via mains supply) - by far the biggest sector.

Gas-oil / Kerosine - pressure jet systems - common in less built up areas / rural areas. Fuel oils aren't used here for environmental reasons, hence it's kerosine / gas-oil.

LPG (Propane) via bulk tank delivery to a local storage tank located in the garden, or sometimes via very large cylinders which are delivered. Typically, there would be 4 or 5 of these all connected to a system to feed the house.

Solid fuels : Smoke-free coals, turf, wood etc for use in stoves and fireplaces (some of which heat radiators too)

Wood pellets: These are becoming a lot more popular, but mostly in rural / outer suburban areas as they're a bit impractical in built-up areas.

Posted By: EV607797 Re: Irish Electricity Meter - Electronic - 09/08/09 12:19 AM
It is the complete opposite here in the Mid Atlantic and southern states of the US. As a matter of fact, our rates are the inverse of yours. The electric rates you are paying are roughly four times what we pay, yet our gas rates are about triple yours.

Surprisingly, Canada uses electricity for heating quite extensively despite their brutal winter temperatures. I attribute this to the vast access to hydroelectric power there, which is cheap and easy to produce.

I guess it really depends upon the rates you are paying because heat pump systems are largely popular in these regions.
Posted By: noderaser Re: Irish Electricity Meter - Electronic - 09/08/09 02:33 AM
Electricity is currently about 10 cents/kWh through Portland General Electric for residential service... They have a "renewable" option, for which I don't know the rate.

Gas is 1.018 cents per therm, which is about 30 kWh... So, 30 cents per kWh.

You would think that the Pacific Northwest would have lots of cheap energy due to hydro, but sadly most of that is sent down to California... 60-70% of PGE's mix is from Coal and Natural Gas from as far away as Montana. While PGE has some of its own hydro, most of the big dams are government-owned, and power is sold to the highest bidder.
Around here, electricity is somewhere between 15 and 25 cents (Euro), depending on the chosen tariff, gas is about 1/4 of that. Where ever natural gas is available, it is used for heating and hot water (with the occasional electric hot water tank in cheap remodels since electrical wiring is cheaper than gas plumbing and electric tank heaters are 1/10 the price of gas tankless heaters, gas tanks are far and few in between, I've seen one in my whole life, besides, Vienna code requires gas appliances to be chimney vented, impractical in many small old apartments that often didn't even have running water at the time they were built) along with some cooking, even though electric cooking is becoming a little more common.

In rural areas, oil and wood, along with wood chips and recently pellets are the most common heat sources. Large propane tanks do exist, but I don't see too many of them. Unlike in Hungary or Italy, cylinders are hardly used except for outdoor cooking (BBQs). Occasionally people do manage to blow up the whole place messing around with propane cylinders in the kitchen (last time it happened in Vienna was about 3 years ago I think, pushed out the front (brick) wall of a 4-storey apartment building by almost a foot, building nearly collapsed. No people harmed though, thankfully.

Cooking is the most common use for 3 phase power, even though the elements are actually 230V evenly distributed across the phases (usually 2 rings on one phase each and the oven on the third). By jumpering all three phase terminals can be connected to a single phase feed but that limits the use of the stove since cooking circuits exceeding 25A are usually impossible to install (instead of the 32 to 40A required for unlimited operation).
© ECN Electrical Forums